Discussions on difficult subjects

[sandelic]

Sorry, I wasn't aware this was related as it wasn't apparent to me immediately. I have to apologize.

No, I have to.

I originally wanted to write what MadPooter wrote since that was my line of thinking, seeing how issues within that community obviously runs deeper than recent events but I was afraid to make an ass out of myself if that was not the same school.

I must admit I got triggered by hstn's post and resorted to thinly vailed sarcasm, which is unbecoming and I must apologize to hstn and all you here, and for that you were right to step in.
 
And I'm still not sure if that's the same school. I assume it is?

Ah, hstn just said it is. Thank you.

[MadPooter]

Sorry, I wasn't aware this was related as it wasn't apparent to me immediately. I have to apologize.

My apologies for dropping the f-bomb unnecessarily. I too need to calm down.

[Bosco]

Rename thread "the thunderdome"

and @MadPooter calm down, not everything is an infringement on free speech. Though your original angle was undermined (on this forum), you've brought up valid concerns on trans discussion.



Let us remember this is forum to celebrate music and share some fun memories . I refuse to point the finger at those who, out of their own goodwill and time, helped carry the original forum to The Next Generation.

Csar, you're doing fine.


Back to your battle stations...

[satur8]

Wow, I wish the real world could resolve issues like this group. In the end, there may still be levels of disagreement or even frustration, but you guys went directly for problem resolution once things boiled over and that's pretty damn cool.

[MadPooter]

Wow, I wish the real world could resolve issues like this group. In the end, there may still be levels of disagreement or even frustration, but you guys went directly for problem resolution once things boiled over and that's pretty damn cool.

I treat all conversations here with the "Vegas Rule," i.e., what happens in the Discussions on Difficult Subjects thread stays in the Discussions on Difficult Subjects thread.

And, honestly, this is how I treat most conversations concerning politics in real life, too. I have to.

I represent clients with politics from across the spectrum--one guy was even an actual white supremacist (who was referred to me by a Jewish colleague)--and I have to divorce peoples' politics from their legal positions.

Just because someone may have radical political beliefs (in any direction) doesn't mean I can't be an effective lawyer for them.

And just because someone may have radically different political beliefs from my own doesn't mean I won't have a conversation in the future with them, either.

[Wolkenkrabber]

Is it safe to enter this thread? With something new(ish)?

https://twitter.com/RussInCheshire/status/1667263830768996373

EDIT: Gah, why aren't tweets embedding?

[MadPooter]

I'll just leave this here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/145yimq/why_do_many_americans_emphasize_race_when_the/

[satur8]

Because...until it actually doesn't matter, there is a need to focus on the inequities. I have never been targeted or faced specific hurdles due to the color of my skin, and that is white privilege. People of color are profiled. People of color are incarcerated at a higher rate. People of color are viewed as "lesser" by people whose lifestyles show absolutely no sign of "superiority" whatsoever.

Look at how BLM was treated in the public eye as compared to the literal insurrection on the Capitol and beating/murder of law enforcement officers: yes, these extremists are facing their time in court, but I am talking about how every day middle America DISCUSSES these things when there are no people of color in the room. Look at how mass shooters are considered terrorists or thugs compared to lone wolves in the media and public opinion solely by the color of their skin. Look at how the letters C-R-T trigger people, without them even bothering to understand what Critical Race Theory is let alone understanding the historical systematic injustices and disadvantages to non-white people in this nation, or the whitewashing of America's dirty secrets for that matter. You do understand that poor black communities in geographically undesirable areas were designed on purpose, correct? You do understand how black veterans were treated as compared to white ones, correct? These things have a cumulative effect over time, and that is what CRT is about. It all is deeply rooted.

That's not to say people of any race or color don't have their prejudices or face hurdles, but if you're living in a world where everything is okay and no work needs to be done, particularly in America, you're living in a fantasy despite the benefit of your west coast / "left" coast advantage.

 I said it before and will say it again: you're one of the most educated people in the room. And as an attorney, you're skilled at wordplay and like to sound like the smartest person in the room to sway an argument, and you like to win. However, there is something to be said for empathy and using that intelligence to put yourself in the shoes of others, and sometimes that means literal losing. I'm not sure where your hot takes on race and trans children are coming from. Don't get me wrong. You're entitled to your reddit opinions or to "JUST ASK QUESTIONS" like Tucker Carlson, but it is fair for the rest of us to expect more from that "highly educated" demographic, right? Did a diversity meeting hurt your feelings or have you just discovered Joe Rogan or something?

Nest week on "Discussions of Difficult Subjects"...Pooter tackles the dirty, lazy homeless and their blight on the Bay Area.

EDIT: And before you reveal that this was left here without an opinion stated and that you are "just putting it out there", your intention to fire up the board again is clear. We are not stupid.

[Bosco]

I think reddit is the worst when coming to discussions like this. Not because of what is discussed, but because of time wasted. It's an always evolving subject and probably an unattainable goal, but one that's better striving for than always being at odds with people who might be different from you.

Satur8 mostly conveys my feelings towards inequities of race/ethnicity here in America and a good reason of why it's still emphasized. I think the best people can do is try to listen and understand in "real life" (not the internet) as much as possible.

[MadPooter]

Because...until it actually doesn't matter, there is a need to focus on the inequities. I have never been targeted or faced specific hurdles due to the color of my skin, and that is white privilege. People of color are profiled. People of color are incarcerated at a higher rate. People of color are viewed as "lesser" by people whose lifestyles show absolutely no sign of "superiority" whatsoever.

Look at how BLM was treated in the public eye as compared to the literal insurrection on the Capitol and beating/murder of law enforcement officers: yes, these extremists are facing their time in court, but I am talking about how every day middle America DISCUSSES these things when there are no people of color in the room. Look at how mass shooters are considered terrorists or thugs compared to lone wolves in the media and public opinion solely by the color of their skin. Look at how the letters C-R-T trigger people, without them even bothering to understand what Critical Race Theory is let alone understanding the historical systematic injustices and disadvantages to non-white people in this nation, or the whitewashing of America's dirty secrets for that matter. You do understand that poor black communities in geographically undesirable areas were designed on purpose, correct? You do understand how black veterans were treated as compared to white ones, correct? These things have a cumulative effect over time, and that is what CRT is about. It all is deeply rooted.

That's not to say people of any race or color don't have their prejudices or face hurdles, but if you're living in a world where everything is okay and no work needs to be done, particularly in America, you're living in a fantasy despite the benefit of your west coast / "left" coast advantage.

 I said it before and will say it again: you're one of the most educated people in the room. And as an attorney, you're skilled at wordplay and like to sound like the smartest person in the room to sway an argument, and you like to win. However, there is something to be said for empathy and using that intelligence to put yourself in the shoes of others, and sometimes that means literal losing. I'm not sure where your hot takes on race and trans children are coming from. Don't get me wrong. You're entitled to your reddit opinions or to "JUST ASK QUESTIONS" like Tucker Carlson, but it is fair for the rest of us to expect more from that "highly educated" demographic, right? Did a diversity meeting hurt your feelings or have you just discovered Joe Rogan or something?

Nest week on "Discussions of Difficult Subjects"...Pooter tackles the dirty, lazy homeless and their blight on the Bay Area.

EDIT: And before you reveal that this was left here without an opinion stated and that you are "just putting it out there", your intention to fire up the board again is clear. We are not stupid.

Lovely rant.

I posted this because the question posted to /r/nostupidquestions was removed because it wasn't, apparently, asked "in good faith."

It's fine for people to post their opinions about racism, regardless of opinion; not being able to discuss your opinion or talk about an issue at all are where we have problems. I'm first and foremost a free speech advocate.

That seemed to be a fine question to ask, and I'm sure you would agree that it's a worthy topic of conversation. I mean, you just spent nearly 500 words dedicated to discussing the issue, right?

Oh--I have no idea how to solve the issue of homelessness in California. Governor Science already has spent $17 Billion, and $4 Billion more slated for expenditure this year.

Sadly we aren't going to spend our way out of that problem, and I have no idea what to even start to do to in order to tackle that issue.

[Stefan]

Pooter, I'd be more inclined to believe your concerns about free speech in the US if you'd get as riled up about for instance this or this or this or this or this or maybe this or this.

[MadPooter]

Pooter, I'd be more inclined to believe your concerns about free speech in the US if you'd get as riled up about for instance this or this or this or this or this or maybe this or this.

It's almost like there are innumerable issues with free speech!

Thank you for referencing these. Happy to talk about any of them that you care to.

Was this supposed to be a "gotcha" moment or something?

Quick edit: You're making assumptions that I don't care about the links you referenced.

Are you requiring a certain level of discussion of what you determine to be free speech issues for anyone advocating free speech?

That seems to be the opposite of free speech--you're prescribing language usage for people and placing requirements on discussion.

So I have to ask: What's your point?

[satur8]

Lovely rant.

Translation: " I'm first and foremost a free speech advocate", but if you call me out on my bullshit I'll straight up dismiss what you've said despite its merit.

I posted this because the question posted to /r/nostupidquestions was removed because it wasn't, apparently, asked "in good faith."

Well, it wasn't removed here even though it clearly wasn't asked "in good faith" because this group IS open to discussions. You're verbose but waited to play the victim. If you had an opinion, you could have started with that instead of stirring the pot while waiting for reactions. Again, nobody is falling for this BS.

Thank you for referencing these. Happy to talk about any of them that you care to.

But you didn't bring them up, did you? No, and you didn't plan to, either. Ever. As you "just ask the questions", you never once brought up any of these:

• Transgender Montana lawmaker Zooey Zephyr disciplined for remainder of 2023 session
• Republicans censure senator for backing LGBTQ+ rights and gun control
• What to Know About Florida's New 'Don't Say Gay' Rule That Bans Discussion of Gender for All Students
• Book bans are on the rise in U.S. schools, fueled by new laws in Republican-led states
• Teacher Anti-CRT Bills Coast To Coast: A State By State Guide
• Under Elon Musk, Twitter has approved 83% of censorship requests by authoritarian governments
• 'Free speech opportunist' Elon Musk caved to government pressure to censor tweets ahead of the Turkish election. Critics argue SpaceX dealings with the country's right-wing leader may have caused the reversal.

No, what you posted, with the coy tag "I'll just leave this here", was "Why do many Americans emphasize race, when the goal is for it to not matter?" and nothing more.

And this comes just days after the group put out the fire over your fear that "YOUR' transgender kids were in danger and that the conservatives who target them were a reasonable part of the solution. Oversimplified? Probably, but I wouldn't want to rant about it again.

Seriously, what is going on? This is indeed a thread to discuss difficult subjects, but what you're doing is immature trolling and then redirecting the blame to everyone who calls it out. It is not my intention to fuel negativity, but neutrality helps the oppressors, never the victims. We're all here for the music and the international fellowship, and we won't always agree, but dude, this is NOT a good look from an adult who has been here for ages.

And @Stefan....good  for you for pointing it like you did.

 

[MadPooter]

 @satur8 - Let me get this straight (sorry was I supposed to use a trigger warning with that word?) -- I post here about Reddit, hoping that people will notice how it's pretty lame that mods of a subreddit ostensibly devoted to answering all questions removes a question based on their opinion of whether or not the question is "asked in good faith."

Your response focused on the substance of the question being asked, and you didn't care that the question was removed. Fine.

I didn't disagree with the opinion in your response, and despite your claim I didn't dismiss it either. I didn't engage with it because I wanted to focus on what I see as a preliminary issue with even being able to have the discussion.

You seem to have now taken offense that I didn't cherish your words and congratulate you on being such a progressive thinker.

Well good on you for stating your opinion! I disagree but isn't that what is so wonderful about allowing people to have opinions? You and I can both disagree, but I hope that we both are willing to allow each other to speak our opinions despite our disagreement.

What I don't understand is the apparent incredulity with which you respond to the idea that I'm concerned about free speech, and that you're choosing for us which are the important free speech battles and which aren't.

What I also don't understand is your suggestion that by not posting about some free speech issues that you seem concerned about, that it means that I am unconcerned about those same issues, and that my concern about any free speech issues I post about lack any sort of merit.

I also don't understand how I'm portraying myself as a victim here, at all, in any sense of the word. I'm just trying to post about discussions that I see are necessary to have but get obfuscated behind political outrage.

I think you and @Stefan are both full of shit by trying to characterize my attempt at bringing up this discussion as lacking merit simply because other instances of free speech issues exist, and that I didn't discuss them in the way either of you wanted.

So with all due respect you both can fuck right off.

You both also engaged in ad hominem attacks, and it is absolutely unconstructive here. My apologies for the snarky comment regarding your progressive thought above, by the way.

See me as nothing more than a provocateur, fine. So be it. I disagree--I don't think I'm here just to trigger people and that's certainly not my intent.

I'll simply wrap this up by restating: Not allowing someone to ask a question is bullshit. And not allowing someone to ask that question because it brings up responses that are uncomfortable is doubly bullshit.

[hstn]

See me as nothing more than a provocateur, fine. So be it. I disagree--I don't think I'm here just to trigger people and that's certainly not my intent.

Oh of course you're clearly not a provocateur not at all

I'd add more to this but I've spoken my piece on trans rights and I have better stuff to do with my time than feed into whatever Pooter is trying to rile up the forum with, Stefan and satur8 are trying to point to legitimate issues while all you seem to be doing is peddling unnecessary discourse in this thread

Like...you're a grown person, why not act like it?

Not to go to that low a blow but stop trying to act like you're just asking questions and then getting upset when you're rightly called out for trying to cause yet another stir

 In terms of race btw it's hard for it to not matter when people of color are continually discriminated against in this country even now, it's embedded in the foundation of this country and it's plain ignorance to deny that, I'd ask for more sources but I'm not looking to be gaslit or told I have conspiracy theories when you've shown you won't even look at sources that disprove your own logic

[Wolkenkrabber]

I post here about Reddit, hoping that people will notice how it's pretty lame that mods of a subreddit ostensibly devoted to answering all questions removes a question based on their opinion of whether or not the question is "asked in good faith."
...
Your response focused on the substance of the question being asked, and you didn't care that the question was removed. Fine.

As a neutral(ish) person who didn't feel inclined to answer this "American" question, I'd just like to say how I perceived the way it was posted.
1) I didn't realise it was a link. I thought it was a screenshot which I therefore didn't think of clicking.
2) Pooter, if your main point was that it had been removed from Reddit, it would have been helpful (to me anyway) if you had said that in your original post. My honest thought was: Pooter is starting a new conversation and seeking responses on the subject of race in America.

With the words "I'll just leave this here" it never occurred to me that you were asking people to commment on the fact that a Reddit discucssion had been deleted. If that means I'm a bit 'slow', well so be it, but that was honestly my perception of your original post. I can understand if other people perceived it the same way.

I don't have any insightful comments to make on the subject matter (race in America), so I'll sit this one out. This is just about how I understood the original post.

PS as for Reddit, well I'm not a Redditor but it certainly seems possible that the question was asked in bad faith. I guess that's a judgement call.  It doesn't look like existing replies are gone. If I understand correctly, they've just halted further discussion.

[MadPooter]

In the future, should I choose to post here again, I'll include the reason for the post, which I assure you will involve the difficulty of having conversations.

[Explud]

Probably now we should expect sanctions against the USA and UK and worldwide condemnation.

Oh, no, I'm sorry, it's different.

[Bosco]

This particular video/podcast exists because they're trying to diminish Taylor's mostly overwhelming popularity.

I believe this to be very true:

[shakermaker]

wow, not sure what to make of it all after that Candace Owens video. nothing is how it appears on the surface, maybe including Candace Owens herself. sigh. 

This particular video/podcast exists because they're trying to diminish Taylor's mostly overwhelming popularity.


I believe this to be very true...

it does seem like she could help turnout. 

doing the math, with an estimated 2/3 of eligible voters actively participating in 2020, that leaves around 80 million eligible voters to motivate. the eras tour sold around 4 million tickets. so there's around 20 eras tours worth of people left to reach.

then again the 2020 election result could have been different with as little as 44k more or fewer votes. that's 1.1% of the eras tour. 

so... who knows. there's obviously many more factors affecting the truth of it, such as where her fans are, how many of them are already actively voting, etc.

I'm curious about your comment though, "this podcast exists because they're trying to diminish her popularity". are you suggesting this is like a smear piece? or just that people are afraid of her influence? Candace is certainly implying that Taylor's power is unchecked and being abused, that is a scary idea, and now that I write all this out yeah maybe I get your point. maybe this is why some celebrities opt out of political statements, because one person having that kind of influence is too much.