Discussions on difficult subjects

[Wolkenkrabber]

@Wolkenkrabber

I'm one of those people that can remove the art from the artist. ...

For example, I can't help but love most of the music that Phil Spector help produce ...

By the way, I love Gary Glitters "Hey" song aka Rock n' Roll part 2

I still like Phil Spector's stuff too.
There's a scene in the film Tár where a music student tells conductor Lydia Tár (Cate Blanchett) that he won't perform certain composers' work because of who they were as people. This leads to Ms Tar having an ... interesting discussion about music and life with the student. You'll have to see the film for the outcome.

Wagner was (IMHO) a complete dick, but because he's dead I think it's easier to enjoy his music than if he were alive.
Because Phil Spector is in jail forever, I think it's easy to almost dismiss him as though he's dead and can do no further harm.

So at the risk of stirring the hornets nest further, re Gary Glitter (soon to be a free man, again). Some people were concerned that the guy might receive some form of royalties/payments as a result of his song being used in Joker. And, perhaps with good reason they didn't like the idea of a convicted paedophile making money out of a film (and by extension their cinema tickets).
I read that he actually wouldn't be making any money from Joker.  [Question 1:] But what if he did make money from it? Would you be happy that your Cineworld ticket could have helped fund the life (and continuing "lifestyle") of a convicted paedophile? He was convicted in 1999, 2006 and 2015. He was also expelled from Cambodia in 2002.

And a second question: When Gary Glitter gets out of jail, he could decide to start promoting his music in the media with interviews etc. If you worked for a radio/TV station as a guest booker, would you book Gary Glitter?

[MadPooter]

Honestly, I hate the question you asked Madpooter. This is the type of loaded questioning that gets everyone in trouble post-thanksgiving meal. 

It's unfortunate that everyone feels that they would "get in trouble" for their response. It's also unfortunate that... you're not wrong. Although obviously I don't care what you say, and I wish that other people wouldn't care so much.

We appear to have hit the ultimate "meta" question for this topic here. This is a difficult subject that is so difficult to discuss that it cannot be fully discussed, apparently.

I asked between 10-20 people on Twitter what they thought accountability meant, just to see what people thought about the concept. Most didn't respond. I thought that was strange considering how most of them were so adamant that we focus on accountability.

Thank you, nonetheless, for your input.

[Bosco]

[Question 1:] But what if he did make money from it? Would you be happy that your Cineworld ticket could have helped fund the life (and continuing "lifestyle") of a convicted paedophile? He was convicted in 1999, 2006 and 2015. He was also expelled from Cambodia in 2002.

And a second question: When Gary Glitter gets out of jail, he could decide to start promoting his music in the media with interviews etc. If you worked for a radio/TV station as a guest booker, would you book Gary Glitter?

1. No I wouldn't be happy. But I also know that there is so many things in life which I'm buying goods or services from, that might fund something that I don't agree with either. Ignorance is bliss, I'm afraid...
I'm not trying to be cold hearted, there is exceptions that rub me the wrong way. I guess I'm more of the "pick your battles" type.

2. And no, I would not book Gary Glitter to any type of media booking. With maybe the exception, that in return a large donation being put towards PTSD organizations, which exclusively take care of victims of rape, pedophilia, or child molestation.

I can't imagine there would ever be a positive spin to Gary Glitter's career once he's out of jail. He's very much doomed like Bill Cosby.


BTW, Phil Spector is dead. I don't know if you knew that, your wording didn't infer that. Either way, your point is made.

[sandelic]

This is a difficult subject that is so difficult to discuss that it cannot be fully discussed, apparently.

Accountability is tricky. It's easy when it's "the other", hard when it's you. I guess that's why most are silent on the topic.
Even discussing art done by morally questionable people (or truly awful people) is hard to discuss.
Should Wagner be wiped out of history because of his anti-Semite views?
Would humanity be diminished for it? Should it?
Does one really think about his views while listening to his work?
Would it be different if he walked this Earth right now, earn money from it, to spew more hatred?

All those are hard questions for me and I could argue multiple viewpoints endlessly.
Another thing that's hard about it is platform we use to discuss it.
Nuance is non-existent in internet discussions. And it's sorely needed for such difficult topics.

[Wolkenkrabber]

Open question:

What does accountability look like to you? What should happen to someone who has been, for one reason or another, "cancelled"?

This almost felt like an exam question: "Discuss accountability and the concept of being 'cancelled' using your own examples to back up your argument".

Well, I don't know whether you got the answer(s) you wanted in my replies. But perhaps the question was too open? I think if you asked a more specific question, providing an example(s), it might solicit more of a response.

So, Pooter tell us: who got "cancelled", what did they do to get cancelled, and who cancelled them?
Is it those who did the cancelling whom you want to see held accountable?

I tried to put some meat on the bones of your question by picking three examples. Your comments feel a bit abstract to me. And I'm not sure that everyone who claims they have been cancelled really has been. Some people seem to just use it as an excuse for getting a bad reception when they say/do bad things. They sometimes blame those who gave them the bad reception.

It's unfortunate that everyone feels that they would "get in trouble" for their response. It's also unfortunate that... you're not wrong. Although obviously I don't care what you say, and I wish that other people wouldn't care so much.

1) I claim exemption from "everyone". I've attempted to reply and I'm probably hogging the thread at this point!

2) Re: not caring, would it be fair to say that you care enough to a) ask the original question and b) rue the fact that you're not getting the replies you seek?

3) In terms of wishing that others wouldn't care so much, I would suggest that issues such as homophobia and other forms of bigotry are less tolerated now precisely because people care. Because they won't turn a blind eye. And, at the risk of using a lazy example, perhaps if people had cared a bit more about Hitlers sh*t back in the 1930s (I include Germans in that), the world might have avoided a holocaust, a war and a whole load of aggro.

BTW, Phil Spector is dead. I don't know if you knew that, your wording didn't infer that. Either way, your point is made.

Ha! I actually forgot that he had died! My bad.

[MadPooter]

This almost felt like an exam question: "Discuss accountability and the concept of being 'cancelled' using your own examples to back up your argument".

Well, I don't know whether you got the answer(s) you wanted in my replies. But perhaps the question was too open? I think if you asked a more specific question, providing an example(s), it might solicit more of a response.

So, Pooter tell us: who got "cancelled", what did they do to get cancelled, and who cancelled them?
Is it those who did the cancelling whom you want to see held accountable?

I tried to put some meat on the bones of your question by picking three examples. Your comments feel a bit abstract to me. And I'm not sure that everyone who claims they have been cancelled really has been. Some people seem to just use it as an excuse for getting a bad reception when they say/do bad things. They sometimes blame those who gave them the bad reception.

1) I claim exemption from "everyone". I've attempted to reply and I'm probably hogging the thread at this point!

2) Re: not caring, would it be fair to say that you care enough to a) ask the original question and b) rue the fact that you're not getting the replies you seek?

3) In terms of wishing that others wouldn't care so much, I would suggest that issues such as homophobia and other forms of bigotry are less tolerated now precisely because people care. Because they won't turn a blind eye. And, at the risk of using a lazy example, perhaps if people had cared a bit more about Hitlers sh*t back in the 1930s (I include Germans in that), the world might have avoided a holocaust, a war and a whole load of aggro.

This isn't really supposed to be an argument; this is supposed to be a discussion. I wanted to let people talk about what they understand accountability to be without inserting my own opinion about what I think accountability should be.

I also didn't want this to be a discussion between me and everyone else--I wanted to encourage people to talk about what they understand is necessary to feel okay about holding people accountable for their actions... and then allowing us to move on as a global society.

So, yes, this topic does tend to be pretty abstract sometimes.

So far I like how even this limited discussion identifies the complexity of what accountability means depending on the context, and the definition will shift in accordance with the severity of whatever behavior or actions require accountability. I agree with Sandelic that this becomes an even more difficult conversation when it potentially involves people's own actions or behaviors.

This conversation does, indeed, necessarily involve a discussion of cancel culture. And to address your question of who has been cancelled, here are some links, though this is not an exhaustive list, and all are examples from the U.S.:

In Academia: https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/scholars-under-fire

In Hollywood: https://pagesix.com/article/canceled-celebrities-where-are-they-now/

In other industries (some crossover): https://www.heritage.org/progressivism/commentary/12-people-canceled-the-left-after-expressing-conservative-views

The incident which prompted this topic of discussion I had actually just posted about immediately prior my original post--this involved Andrew Callaghan.

Depending on how you defined "cancelled" you may or may not agree with the above lists of "cancellations." There are also varying definitions of "cancel culture" as well.

I tend to define "cancelled" as describing how an individual who held some notable position or engaged in a substantive trade or profession--because of some verboten (but mostly not illegal) conduct--is excluded from that position or trade/profession at the behest of public outcry, typically on social media.

It's the fast-food equivalent of the expectation of justice; it's the stilted corporate response coddled by consumer habits, feeding a bloated, unwieldy, amorphous process that allows for a sense of satisfaction akin to us changing the channel away from a program that we do not find suitable to our tastes.

Admittedly this is hyperbole, of course--and in defense of the above sometimes there are good results. Something did need to be done about Harvey Weinstein, and Kanye probably isn't going to do the world any favors by spouting off about the Jews.

Responding to your experience, I'm happy to read that you do not feel as though you would "get in trouble" for talking about your opinion regarding controversies. It's surprising, at least from what I've read about how some Germans have been treated for some statements made on the Internet.

In the United States, 6 out of every 10 people are afraid to voice their opinions. In the bay area of California, where I live, it is exacerbated. Anyone saying anything not following leftist narratives are met with outright hostility.

I do hope that we get to a point where Americans are more freely able to discuss issues more freely--it feels ironic for me to say that, but I have trouble understanding that it's not true.

Thank you for responding--I'm not sure I agree with your suggestions re historical attitudes.

[hstn]

I mean cancel culture seems to be bs cos the people we try to hold accountable still are given platforms constantly...Mel Gibson, Dave Chappelle etc.

Complaining about it feels almost akin to wanting the right to be bigoted towards others, cos like...there's a difference between difference of opinion and stuff like homophobia and transphobia, which like Wolkenkrabber said is coming from people doubling down on how much individuals have been embraced, or even anything..."woke" I hate that word lol

But idk it feels more like this is just stoking the flames and eliciting the "right" response rather than genuine discussion but that's just me, I'm just tired of the lack of distinction between opinions and...prejudice and predatory behavior cos that's really what it boils down to...

The people whining about being canceled literally have their platforms handed to them and even when they get "canceled"...they aren't...but those who are actually suffering or are victims...also become victim to a manufactured culture war...hence the need for accountability

[MadPooter]

I mean cancel culture seems to be bs cos the people we try to hold accountable still are given platforms constantly...Mel Gibson, Dave Chappelle etc.

Complaining about it feels almost akin to wanting the right to be bigoted towards others, cos like...there's a difference between difference of opinion and stuff like homophobia and transphobia, which like Wolkenkrabber said is coming from people doubling down on how much individuals have been embraced, or even anything..."woke" I hate that word lol

But idk it feels more like this is just stoking the flames and eliciting the "right" response rather than genuine discussion but that's just me, I'm just tired of the lack of distinction between opinions and...prejudice and predatory behavior cos that's really what it boils down to...

The people whining about being canceled literally have their platforms handed to them and even when they get "canceled"...they aren't...but those who are actually suffering or are victims...also become victim to a manufactured culture war...hence the need for accountability

And so that leads us back to the original intent of this topic:

What does accountability mean for you?

[MadPooter]

Shout out to our French brothers and sisters.

https://twitter.com/APStylebook/status/1619005157508845568

[Wolkenkrabber]

Shout out to Tucker Carlson who is absolutely furious with M&Ms for not being sexy enough! Especially the green one (it would be the green one - damn lefty environmentalists!).

https://twitter.com/MetroUS/status/1618277522176606208

We don't have these ranters on our news channels in my 'neighbourhood' and I think it might be a good thing. Report the news on the news channels, let people rant on some other programme/channel.
(Well unless you're that Infowars guy - cos he tells lies and gets sued).

[MadPooter]

Shout out to Tucker Carlson who is absolutely furious with M&Ms for not being sexy enough! Especially the green one (it would be the green one - damn lefty environmentalists!).

https://twitter.com/MetroUS/status/1618277522176606208

We don't have these ranters on our news channels in my 'neighbourhood' and I think it might be a good thing. Report the news on the news channels, let people rant on some other programme/channel.
(Well unless you're that Infowars guy - cos he tells lies and gets sued).

It is absolutely hilarious how some people on the right like to call everyone snowflakes but simultaneously lose their shit when animated characters don't look like they think they should.

[Wolkenkrabber]

Brexit Update.
This guy was the Chancellor (finance minsiter), now he's the Prime Minister.
He supported Brexit.
Listen to him sing the praises of membership of the EU Single Market!

https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1630517445369688065

"only you guys have that here". Well Rishi, there was a time when, y'know...

[ThePumisher]

[Csar]

I'll let you in on a secret: "Idiocracy" was a documentary! We now have entered this epoch.

[MadPooter]

https://twitter.com/dancingastro/status/1638012327483129863

Some oddly critical words from Anthony Gonzales of M83. Kind of exudes a certain amount of insecurity.

[MadPooter]

https://twitter.com/LA_ray_/status/1639309046007070720

I'm hearing unsubstantiated rumors about this particular women-oriented fast-food chain...

[Enjoyed]

They did get rid of their creamy sriracha dip, which I have to say has resulted in significantly lower visits to said women-oriented fast-food chain from me...

[Stefan]

Yeah ok but this is how I feel like every year when Pumpkin Spice Season ends at Starbucks

[Wolkenkrabber]

A Chemical Brother has retweeted this:

https://twitter.com/SouthpawLeftist/status/1640797477128527872

[MadPooter]

https://twitter.com/TheTNHoller/status/1631685109119057920

This made the rounds at the beginning of the month (I retweeted it then )

Jon Stewart is in excellent form there.