Discussions on difficult subjects

[UltimatePelmeni]

You have my full apology if this is inappropriate. You spoke up initially and would have many listeners. I thank you for your time. We are not here to judge you, but to support you while standing against these current actions of your government.

People in Russia may have serious problems if they look differently at this situation. So, you won't see many words from me.
Sanctions mostly hit civilians, not government, as many international services, manufacturers and developers left our market.

Thank you all for your support and understanding. Love and peace to all.

[satur8]

Understood.

Your situation is horrible. You have our support here.

[Born In Planet Dust]

Chems' fb post made a caring, concerned, human response to the invasion and it turned to a shitshow real fucking quick.   

[MadPooter]

This bit of news is about a week old at this point but it's nice to switch back and forth between discussions of the Ukraine/Russia conflict with other topics.

UC Hastings is a reasonably renowned law school in San Francisco--I am friends with a significant number of alumni from there.

Last week, a speaker, Ilya Shapiro, was invited to campus to conduct a talk. Due to a tweet that speaker made in January criticizing U.S. President Joe Biden's supreme court nomination, a significant portion of the student body at UC Hastings

, prohibiting him from speaking.

I couldn't believe this. These were future lawyers that were engaged in this conduct, not college students getting their first glimpse into protest after their first lecture from an introduction to political science class. And no one stopped them.

The school released a statement after the event, ostensibly reminding students that free speech exists, and that students should be respectful of speakers on campus.

19 faculty members signed on to an open letter responding to the school, ostensibly saying that as long as someone has been deemed to have made racist or sexist comments, it is okay to shout a speaker down.

If you're wondering why people got so upset in the first place, you can read about it here.

Obviously, I think this is awful and the students who engaged in that "protest," the school, and certainly the 19 professors who signed on to that ridiculous letter should be ashamed of themselves.

[Stefan]

Tbh, to me a lot of the complaining around free speech and cancel culture reads like somebody (most likely a white male), usually in some position of power, wants to be able to say stupid stuff publicly and not face any consequences for it, like it has been for most of history.

Not surprised that the author is ostensibly pro-Trump, to the point of having written an pre-emptive blog post circulating election fraud conspiracy theories implying mail-in ballots are rigged.

[sandelic]

Yeah, you only need to hear what comedians say about campus gigs to understand how depressingly toxic that environment has become.

We should engage with people who have different opinion - not shout them down.

[MadPooter]

Tbh, to me a lot of the complaining around free speech and cancel culture reads like somebody (most likely a white male), usually in some position of power, wants to be able to say stupid stuff publicly and not face any consequences for it, like it has been for most of history.

Not surprised that the author is ostensibly pro-Trump, to the point of having written an pre-emptive blog post circulating election fraud conspiracy theories implying mail-in ballots are rigged.

I certainly agree with you Steven--it's very important to understand how our differences have created different obstacles for us to overcome, and the discussion in helping one another overcome said obstacles carries merit.

What would have been great is to have the students here discuss that topic and how it relates to their own positions as students in order to help the speaker better understand where they were coming from.

What happened here was nothing constructive. Everyone understood what people thought about that speaker's tweet--it was well-discussed. At worst, it kept people who might have disagreed with the students from perhaps gaining a greater insight into their own potential biases.

[Born In Planet Dust]

Yeah, you only need to hear what comedians say about campus gigs to understand how depressingly toxic that environment has become.

We should engage with people who have different opinion - not shout them down.

Agreed, with exception of white supremacists or nazis.  They should NEVER be given a platform and cannot be reasoned with. 

[Wolkenkrabber]

Brave woman.

https://twitter.com/franakviacorka/status/1503445302119968769

https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1503457457393352706

[Csar]

All the fake patriots and pseudo-victims of free speech around the world should be ashamed of themselves and take a hard look at this truely brave woman (and probably her co-workers too) who actually did something so courageous despite facing real and dire consequences for herself and maybe her family. These fake patriots with their staged victimhood could never ever fathom what it would really mean to be brave living in a truely oppressing system.

[Explud]

damn you russia

You cannot damn the whole country.
All Russians are not just our government.

Tweet Error (does not exist)?  Yes it does.

Twitter, Facebook and Instagram is blocked in RU.
That is why the content of these social networks is not embedded in this forum at this time.

The ChemBase Forum is located.. in Russia.. and has always been.. all the seven years of this project, started by a couple of enthusiasts.
All expenses, all legal subtleties, the maintenance and security of this resource have always been on one person only.

There has always been freedom of expression, and still is.
The only thing I ask is to observe the limits of decency and morality.

The political and economic situation may be much more complicated than you think or as you read in the news.
Just ask how many of you have ever been to Russia or Ukraine? How many of you have relatives in one and the other country?

Citizens of both countries have relatives on both sides.

No more comments from me...

[Wolkenkrabber]

Twitter, Facebook and Instagram is blocked in RU.
That is why the content of these social networks is not embedded in this forum at this time.

Actually the majority of tweets are embedding just fine, from my stand point.  When I made my comment about embedding a few days ago, I think Firefox (or my PC?) was struggling with so many embedded tweets (from me!). Are you able to see them at all (perhaps despite the blocking in RU)?

The last tweet I posted/embedded above yesterday indeed features someone who is half Ukranian, half Russian.

Thanks for providing the forum, Explud.

[Csar]

You cannot damn the whole country.
All Russians are not just our government.

I guess I speak for the majority when I say it's never been about the people of Russia rather than, you know, the ones running it. It should never be meant as a generalization. We are all just human beings irrespective of where we're born or live. It's not easy and even hard for you guys as well.
I've watched a couple of intersting videos from a Russian vlogger who apparently does street interviews (not representative of course) and the insights from what is and especially isn't said is enlightening and gave me a glimpse into what it might be like currently. My heart goes out to you, too.

[satur8]

You cannot damn the whole country.
All Russians are not just our government.

Explud, you are absolutely correct. 

I didn't realize you are also in Russia but I've recently commented that Russian citizens are also victims in all of this, in numerous ways. For what its worth, I express this to some American colleagues as it comes up. I'm not sure why people don't understand the big picture ramifications for all sides, or why communicating the suffering (and fear) the Russian people are facing is somehow associated with a lack of support for Ukraine. And, of course, it's not all of them, but many Americans are not generally known for their intelligence, empathy for anyone other than themselves, or understanding of history, politics, or foreign affairs, yet they always seem to have the loudest opinion in these areas.

We stand with all of our brothers and sisters who suffer at the hands of those with power and wealth and the greed that blinds them to human life, be it in Ukraine, Russia, or in our own homelands.


On a different note...I had no idea the forum was hosted in Russia. I'm glad you guys still have this connection. If there is information you need provided, find a way to let us know and I'm sure we can work together to help.

[Wolkenkrabber]

Just ask how many of you have ever been to Russia or Ukraine? How many of you have relatives in one and the other country?

For the sake of our Russian forumites who may have their news/internet limited.
This appears to be an issue that may go beyond Russia and Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1505835864953434113

The above tweet is from Guy Verhofstadt, former Prime Minister of Belgium and currently a prominent MEP in the EU. It is dated today. It reads:

80% of Mariupol is destroyed. Putin wants it to choke the rest of Ukraine to death. If he succeeds, Eastern Europe is next...

Short of military engagement we must do everything to stop him... while we still have a chance...

Full sanctions now !

Poland, Hungary and Bulgaria are all part of NATO. If Putin goes for them, we have big trouble. And by "we", I mean Europe and the world. All three are also members of the EU incidentally.

[MadPooter]

My brother is spearheading an effort through an organization to help get Ukranian civilians out of Ukraine.

https://fundrazr.com/ukrainefreedomproject?ref=ab_0B7RK8_ab_0WcE8WBcoTe0WcE8WBcoTe

He literally traveled to Ukraine and rented an apartment there to help get people out 5 days after the war started.

If any of you are able to donate, by all means.

[MadPooter]

It's hard to know which I feel more strongly, my sorrow for the loss of actual innocent life on such a large scale, or the shame I feel for how a large percentage of individuals in my country choose to discuss such a tragedy.

For anyone who hasn't heard the news of America's most recent tragedy, 19 schoolchildren in a small town in the state of Texas were shot and killed, along with two of their teachers, at school. The shooter was an 18 year-old male, clearly with mental health issues, who also went to the school.

America has a special kind of ignorance. Somehow people believe that abortion is evil, and they support passage of laws restricting or outright banning abortion--indeed, Texas has such laws, albeit currently under constitutional scrutiny--but at the same time they decry yesterday's tragedy as evil, and say that "we cannot legislate against evil."

I don't know how to even start a discussion about what to do--topics of gun control lead to a response that regulation of guns is never effective. Discussions of responsible gun ownership lead to a response that there is an infringement of a constitutional right.

And then discussing that constitutional right, let's take a look at numero dos on the list of U.S. Constitutional Amendments:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

If you read that backward, that's how we arrive at our current interpretation of whether or not individuals in the U.S. should be allowed to own a gun. What I mean is--even though there is a clear emphasis on maintaining a Militia for the United States (there was no standing army for the United States when the 2nd Amendment was drafted), this foundational purpose is construed as a byproduct of the latter mention of an individual right to bear Arms.

My suspicion is that real change will only come if we see a large-scale tragedy happen involving the "right" group of people (read: a school full of white children in Texas instead of Mexican ones). I wish I were joking.

Until then, we get to hear about what the real problem was--the teachers didn't have guns with them in the classroom to shoot back.

[Wolkenkrabber]

topics of gun control lead to a response that regulation of guns is never effective.

But regulation *is* effective. Do the gun people not realise how high gun deaths are in America compared to say, Europe where gun ownership/availablility is less common?

Until then, we get to hear about what the real problem was--the teachers didn't have guns with them in the classroom to shoot back.

Everyone has to have a gun to defend themselves from everyone else with a gun. And so it spirals...

Tim Burgess was tweeting about this stuff earlier:

https://twitter.com/Tim_Burgess/status/1529531147432108032
https://twitter.com/Tim_Burgess/status/1529532786738094083

Also:

https://twitter.com/EoinHiggins_/status/1529483504857251844

[Stefan]

I still remember, from my first trip to the US, from my hotel I had a view directly at a 7-days-a-week Guns&Ammo Superstore. And, from my first visit to to a Walmart, Guns at sale there.
As a European living in a country with reasonable firearm regulations, the US culture around them seems just bizarre and insane.
I'm not surprised that these horrific crimes happen again and again.
What I don't get is that everytime, when the (usually Republican) lawmaker doorknobs fart out their bigoted "it's not about gun control but about mental health, thoughts and prayers blah blah blah" it isn't immediately followed up by the question "Ok, so what are your proposed solutions to this mental health crisis?", or, even better, just ask them why they oppose literally every and any attempt to make (mental) healthcare more accessible and affordable.
It's not entirely wrong that the problem in the US is not *just* about gun control, as due to a variety and combination of biological and social factors, there will probably always exist people who resort to violence as a "solution" to their problems. However, having easy access to tools that are specifically made to inflict as much damage as possible in the shortest amount of time with the least effort make all of the problems exponentially worse. And in that sense it is exaclty about gun control, and it is the easiest issue to solve here.

My suspicion is that real change will only come if we see a large-scale tragedy happen involving the "right" group of people (read: a school full of white children in Texas instead of Mexican ones). I wish I were joking.

Sandy Hook. It changed absolutely zilch. Then, (at the latest) many politicians decided that to them, the lives of children are worth less than the millions of donations they receive from the NRA.

[MadPooter]

Sandy Hook. It changed absolutely zilch. Then, (at the latest) many politicians decided that to them, the lives of children are worth less than the millions of donations they receive from the NRA.

My take on this is that 2nd amendment advocates in the United States largely fall on the right, and human beings (especially ones in the United States it seems) only seem to respond with empathy when there is something that directly affects them.

Unfortunately, I think that a lot of people on the right dismissed the Sandy Hook tragedy because it happened in a blue state (Connecticut), and they were likely to even, on some level, disregard the harm to that particular community because they probably thought they were simply ill-prepared, or worse that they somehow deserved it because of their political beliefs.

There are some serious divides and willful separations from the people on the right I have interacted with, and my perspective comes from a combination of that and a general understanding that human beings are tribal in nature and tend to look inward to their own kind when it comes to policy decisions.

If the Texas massacre happened in a primarily white community, real change might occur. I can understand disagreement, but that's my opinion at this point.