Discussions on difficult subjects

[MadPooter]

This whole bigotry from the so-called conservatives is so laughable, since it's the very same people who argue that oh they care so much for the children, at the same time want firearms to be handed out basically like candy. Thoughts and prayers I guess.
And, while they dream up their conspiracy narrative of LGBTQ groomer culture, are often pretty silent when it comes to the countless abuse scandals in religious groups.
They care about the children? Gender-Affirming care acutally reduces suicide risk among non-heteronormative youth. It's not about protecting children, it's about denying neccessary healthcare.

The laughable idea that their bathroom bills are about protecting women from harrassment (lol, men do that all the time, no one ever felt the need to dress up for that), while in reality, it leads to women getting harrassed for using the bathroom. It's not about protecting women from harrassment, it's about denying people access to the public space who don't conform with white supremacists ideas of how women should look like.

Btw, in case you think there are any legitimate questions raised by Matt Walsh in this movie, here's an extensive fact-check on his pseudoscientific hit-piece: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/in-what-is-a-woman-matt-walsh-asks-a-question/

If you are generally curious about the "transgender issue", aks yourself why trans people are far more likely to be victims of crimes and harrassement than cis people, why trans people have worse access to healthcare, why they are at higher risk for suicide.

I'm sorry that you think Walshs movie is a legitimate documentary and not see it for just another puzzle-piece in the "Conservative"'s hatred of non-heteronormative people.

Uggh. I'm not here to defend this documentary. This is awkward.

But I assure you--if we understand Michael Moore (Bowling for Columbine; Sicko) to be a documentary filmmaker, so is Matt Walsh.

The link you provided supposedly debunking the entire documentary is neither exhaustive nor is it anything other than a presentation of competing opinions. For instance the question of "chemical castration" or discussing the administration of the drug "lupron" isn't anywhere to be found there.

In the documentary, Matt Walsh interviewed legitimate sources, and he wasn't sitting there belittling and undermining professionals that held opinions contrary to his own.

The bathroom bills are bullshit--there are already laws that protect people from harm in bathrooms, and I don't think it's actually going to provide any sort of meaningful changes. But I don't live in those states and I don't vote for those legislators.

With regard to the question of violence against trans individuals, the claim of rising violence against anyone falling into the LGBTQ+ communities has been around for many decades, at least.

I remember in particular the story of Matthew Shepard, whose murder in 1998 was used as evidence to show the rising violence toward gay individuals. The story was that Shepard was attacked and tied to a fence post, leaving him there to die, because he was gay.

What actually happened, however, is a matter of some controversy, and one individual who investigated Shepard's death concluded that it was actually a drug deal gone wrong.

I'm skeptical of the claims of rising violence toward trans individuals, but I nonetheless can understand the concern.

The other issues you cited to aren't new, and they're discussed in the documentary.

[MadPooter]

Yes, which is why you shouldn't consult a TV production produced by a right-wing crook on a right-wing network for answers.
Here's a list of statements by actual reputable medical associations and organizations:
https://transhealthproject.org/resources/medical-organization-statements/

How about a left-leaning publication? Will you trust that source?

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2023/04/gender-affirming-care-debate-europe-dutch-protocol/673890/

[Stefan]

i'm glad that we can agree that the hatred of trans people result in cruel and harmful policies.

The link you provided supposedly debunking the entire documentary is neither exhaustive nor is it anything other than a presentation of competing opinions.

No. Absolutely not. This is not a matter of competing opinions. The author of the blob is an acutal medical expert in exactly the field he writes about:

AJ Eckert
Dr. AJ Eckert, D.O. (they/he) is the Medical Director of Anchor Health's Gender & Life-Affirming Medicine (GLAM) Program and Assistant Clinical Professor of Family Medicine at Frank H. Netter MD School of Medicine at Quinnipiac University. Dr. Eckert has been involved in LGBTQ health care for over sixteen years, with nine years of experience as a provider of primary and preventative care and gender-affirming services, including hormone treatment and puberty blockers. Outside of their clinical work with patients, Dr. Eckert is active in education and advocacy and a classically trained concert pianist.

Walsh has absolutely zero medical credentials or training. None.
About the documentary: Here's a thing many people are not aware of: popular media (movies, books, articles, podcasts) about scientific topics, have, in many cases, absolutely zero peer review or fact checking. They tell a story in a way that is convincing to the target audience of lay people, i.e. people who can not put the information presented in context. I am simply not able to assess if what the movie is telling me is credible or full of shit.
This is why it's always important to set the information in proper context. Does the movie or book largely align with scientific organizations and professional (field-specific) science journalism? If yes, then the work is probably a good, accessible piece of information on that topic. If not, be very cautious.
Walsh makes no secret of his disdain for trans people. There is absolutely no reason to think that he made this movie with good intentions of carefully portraying a scientific debate.

[MadPooter]

i'm glad that we can agree that the hatred of trans people result in cruel and harmful policies.
No. Absolutely not. This is not a matter of competing opinions. The author of the blob is an acutal medical expert in exactly the field he writes about:
Walsh has absolutely zero medical credentials or training. None.
About the documentary: Here's a thing many people are not aware of: popular media (movies, books, articles, podcasts) about scientific topics, have, in many cases, absolutely zero peer review. They tell a story in a way that is convincing to the target audience of lay people, i.e. people who can not put the information presented in context. I am simply not able to assess if what the movie is telling me is credible or full of shit.
This is why it's always important to set the information in proper context. Does the movie or book largely align with scientific organizations and professional (field-specific) science journalism? If yes, then the work is probably a good, accessible piece of information on that topic. If not, be very cautious.
Walsh makes no secret of his disdain for trans people. There is absolutely no reason to think that he made this movie with good intentions of carefully portraying a scientific debate.

I'm glad that we can agree that the source you cited neither acknowledged nor addressed the use of the drug lupron in gender-affirming care for children, and that it is indeed a concern regardless of the political leanings or controversy of the source of the concern.

I'm also glad we can acknowledge our lay-person understanding of these issues and rely on the experts to sort this issue out so that we don't end up allowing harm to our children while we try to prevent harm to trans children.

[hstn]

I'm glad that we can agree that the source you cited neither acknowledged nor addressed the use of the drug lupron in gender-affirming care for children, and that it is indeed a concern regardless of the political leanings or controversy of the source of the concern.

I'm also glad we can acknowledge our lay-person understanding of these issues and rely on the experts to sort this issue out so that we don't end up allowing harm to our children while we try to prevent harm to trans children.

If Matt Walsh is your example of an expert then pity doesn't begin to describe what I have for you

[MadPooter]

If Matt Walsh is your example of an expert then pity doesn't begin to describe what I have for you

What? Where did you get "expert" out of "Conservative pundit"?

The experts in the documentary and the experts cited by others clearly disagree.

The whole point of posting about this was the fact that this doc was labeled as containing "hateful conduct," and if we're seeing coverage of an actual debate among experts, the label is inaccurate and we should allow this topic to be discussed.

[Stefan]

I'm glad that we can agree that the source you cited neither acknowledged nor addressed the use of the drug lupron in gender-affirming care for children, and that it is indeed a concern regardless of the political leanings or controversy of the source of the concern.

I'm also glad we can acknowledge our lay-person understanding of these issues and rely on the experts to sort this issue out so that we don't end up allowing harm to our children while we try to prevent harm to trans children.

But apparently you somehow thought that Matt Walsh presented a reasonable report on these matters instead of being an anti-trans hit peace (or why did you bring it up here in the first place?)
I can't and won't go into any specific claims , but in the review I posted an expert wrote extensively about many, many cases of misinformation in this movie. That doesn't mean that everything presented there is necessarily wrong, but that the movie cannont be trusted as a reliable piece of information on the matter it claims to report on. If a claimed documentary is wrong about so many things it is either careless or it intentionally skews the information in order to convince you of something.

[Stefan]

The whole point of posting about this was the fact that this doc was labeled as containing "hateful conduct," and if we're seeing coverage of an actual debate among experts, the label is inaccurate and we should allow this topic to be discussed.

I'm sorry, if you look at the horrible debate about trans rights and healthcare in the US and fail to see how a movie that poses as a documentary while deliberately presenting misinformation is simply a hit-piece meant to fuel/re-inforce hatred, then I can't help you.

[MadPooter]

The only thing that isn't up for discussion is the validity of the lives of real people, Stefan's sources sum it up best.

So many of my friends are queer and I'm witnessing this shit in real time, for crooks like Matt Walsh and all these other right wing grifters to prey on an already vulnerable group of people is unbelievably egregious. The last thing they should have to do is justify their existence...period.

 I said what I said. Protect Trans Kids.

I think you need to take a closer look.

The first of the links provided on the website Stefan referenced is the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, which has this to say about treatment in children with gender dysphoria:

"Given the lack of empirical evidence from randomized, controlled trials of the efficacy of treatment aimed at eliminating gender discordance, the potential risks of treatment, and longitudinal evidence that gender discordance persists in only a small minority of untreated cases arising in childhood, further research is needed on predictors of persistence and desistence of childhood gender discordance as well as the long-term risks and benefits of intervention before any treatment to eliminate gender discordance can be endorsed."

When it comes to adolescents, here's the suggested course:

"Further research is needed to definitively establish the effectiveness and acceptability of these treatment approaches."

So, forgive me, I'm just a lay person here. But what this sounds like is the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry explicitly does not endorse treatment for gender dysphoria in children, and also that treatment for gender dysphoria in adolescents is something that they are requiring more research before endorsing.

Yet, if you take a look at the website that Steven linked to, it states, "Leading medical groups recognize the medical necessity of treatments for gender dysphoria and endorse such treatments."

I would love it if an actual expert could weigh in but this sounds like the link Stefan provided is, knowingly or unknowingly, spreading misinformation.

Stefan do you want to weigh in on this?

[Stefan]

I posted a link above from an acutal medical professional who works in the very specific field who goes into many false claims in Walshs movie, and you thought of this as a "contrary opinion", just because a single claim wasn't mentioned in the fact-check.

Why would it even matter to you if I weigh in?

[MadPooter]

I posted a link above from an acutal medical professional who works in the very specific field who goes into many false claims in Walshs movie, and you thought of this as a "contrary opinion", just because a single claim wasn't mentioned in the fact-check.

Why would it even matter to you if I weigh in?

I apologize--I thought we were both concerned about misinformation.

Do you want me to fact-check your fact-checker beyond the one example? That took about 30 seconds to find the one.

I'm not discrediting your source but I am certainly challenging your characterization of the source that it "completely debunks" the documentary. Your source accurately characterizes this discussion as a disagreement among experts.

[Stefan]

I'm not discrediting your source but I am certainly challenging your characterization of the source that it "completely debunks" the documentary. Your source accurately characterizes this discussion as a disagreement among experts.

I'm sorry what?

In the end, Walsh is no more an expert on gender than Jenny McCarthy is on vaccines or Ben Stein is on evolution; all are lay people invoking bad science to support their ideologies. With his film, Walsh clearly did not set out to honestly seek answers to a perplexing question, even if they are complex. Instead, he started with a conclusion and then sought out sources to support that conclusion, no matter how dubious the source, making this film an exercise not in honest truth-seeking but rather motivated reasoning. In making this film, Walsh not-coincidentally fueled the flames of conservative pundits and internet trolls to further mock and degrade trans people using fake experts, bad science, false equivalences, conspiracy theories, and blatantly false claims to reach his predetermined conclusion. We fear that  will still be used by anti-trans activists five and ten years from now, just as  and  are still used today by, respectively, antivaccine activists to demonize vaccines and creationists to attack Darwin. That's because  is an example of the same tool that antivaxxers, creationists, and other science-denying conspiracy theorists use to promote their messages.

[MadPooter]

I'm sorry what?

Did you miss the part where the author compared sources and pitted experts discussing this issue?

That was accurate.

The part you quoted there at the end is nonsense.

[Stefan]

This is exactly the part where an expert concludes that this movie is a motivated hate piece. As far as I know that was your starting point, that you doubted this is a hate piece.
The movie is not a reliable source or reporting about any actual medical discussion. I do not deny that there are actual scientific and medical discussions on that topic. But Walsh and other "conservatives" have no interest in portraying a fair and balanced view. They'll present any discussion in a way to justify their political and social goals of denying healthcare access for trans people, just as they cook up conspiracy narratives about groomer culture to justify access to public space.

[MadPooter]

This is exactly the part where an expert concludes that this movie is a motivated hate piece. As far as I know that was your starting point, that you doubted this is a hate piece.
The movie is not a reliable source or reporting about any actual medical discussion.

We do differ on our understanding of hate, yes.

And apparently we place different values on being able to discuss pressing issues that directly affect our children.

[hstn]

We do differ on our understanding of hate, yes.

And apparently we place different values on being able to discuss pressing issues that directly affect our children.

It's genuinely concerning you don't consider any of that hate, conservatives do not care about logic and facts no matter how much you think they do

Matt Walsh just "asking questions" isn't trying to shine a light on anything except giving themselves a platform for their bigotry...you can deflect and try to circle around what is said here all you want but this is what's happening, I'm witnessing it right in front of my own eyes

You want laypeople to bow out of discussion on trans issues, yet when given sources that debunk much of what conservative pundits (who are also laypeople when it comes to trans issues), you refuse to believe it and would rather circumvent the idea

All this documentary provided was more fuel for hatred in this country, hatred based on false science, ideas, theories that would likely put more of our children in harms way than ANY trans person or drag queen could cause

Matt Walsh is not an expert on trans issues or protecting children any more than a Catholic priest is on trans issues and ESPECIALLY protecting children, and I pity you for falling for those traps

If you or they value children that much, why isn't anything being done about mass shootings, cuts to education, even book bans by the same people turning queer people into predators? THOSE issues are what concerns the general American, not a trans person just trying to exist in society without fearing for their lives

This is blatant transphobia whether you choose to accept it or not

[Stefan]

And apparently we place different values on being able to discuss pressing issues that directly affect our children.

A pressing issue that endangers children in the US would be gun violence, for instance. Or access to healthcare and social security in general.
Conservatives blatantly ignore the harm that's happening there. And somehow, I now should expect that they have an honest interest in childrens wellbeing? The very same people who brought up the very same argument (we must protect the children) when it came to deny basic civil rights for gay people?

[MadPooter]

A pressing issue that endangers children in the US would be gun violence, for instance. Or access to healthcare and social security in general.
Conservatives blatantly ignore the harm that's happening there. And somehow, I now should expect that they have an honest interest in childrens wellbeing?

It seems like we should be able to talk about both. They're all issues that deserve attention.

Looks like Twitter backed down on the "Hateful Content" label, by the way.

[hstn]

It seems like we should be able to talk about both. They're all issues that deserve attention.

Looks like Twitter backed down on the "Hateful Content" label, by the way.

Because their owner (who has a trans daughter) wants to keep engaging in this rhetoric, he's the richest fascist alive

To a point Twitter's head of trust and safety resigned as a result of Elon backing down on the label...

And well we're not talking about both because you're focusing on the absolute non issue that is the existence of trans people!

Any issues/fear mongering that Matt Walsh and co. try to push IS that, fear mongering, no more different than the gay panic we spent decades trying to fight

[Stefan]

Great, talk about it. I just fail to see how a hit-piece by a trans hater is relevant to the discussion.