Discussions on difficult subjects

[MadPooter]

@Stefan @Csar - I absolutely agree with the both of you re the change in not allowing links to other social media sites.

I think in principle, sure, you don't want to have a platform with users where all they are doing is using your platform to advertise for their profiles on other sites.

But how you go about enforcing that... I think this is a stupid move that much more clearly violates his expressed principles of free speech.

I actually hope he rolls this back, or is absolutely transparent about taking action on the new policy (which he won't, I'm sure--Twitter is barely getting around to giving people explanations about user suspensions).

[Stefan]

Perhaps you liked Twitter better when the United States government had enforcement agencies working with Twitter to censor speech?

https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1603857534737072128

I just skimmed through this thread and his other threads on the Twitter files, that are apparently an attempt by Musk to unearth something scandalous.
The scandalous part here is that law enforcement agencies were in close contact with Twitters content moderation teams? Given how Twitter was an important tool for election meddling and misinformation spreading in the 2016 and 2020 elections that's not so unreasonable.

You seem to enjoy the idea that speech should have consequences. Unless words are being used to incite violence (which arguably is what doxxing is, since the only real information that is being communicated is someone's personally identifying information geographically), the only consequence of speech should be... more speech.

Regarding doxxig: What private information is being communicated here? The flight tracker info is already available to literally any person on earth with access to the internet and a device that can run a web browser. I take it doesn't even need sophisticated programming skills to write a bot that posts this information. AFAIK the intent of the bot was to highlight Musks hypocrisy of caring about climate change (his main selling point for Tesla), since he frequently uses his private jet, even for 15-minute flights from SFO to San Jose (a trip which takes maybe an hour with a car, given heavy traffic). The idea that the intent for this information was to incite violence is hilarious. The tracking information is already available to anyone, and Airports are under heavy security (the only places where, all over the US, guns and most other items useable as weapons aren't allowed).
Again, let's just take Musk by his word and see how content moderation on Twitter handles it the next time somebody gets doxxed.

To be clear: consequences is a large spectrum. The consequences most of the people who cry "cancel culture" don't seem to handle that well are... being spoken back to. Usually because they come from some place of power or privilege and are simply not being used to it. The fact that there are huge power imbalances in our societies and that what for some is just funny speech has real concequences, from limited social participation to outright violence, for others is conveniently (ignorantly or purposefully) overlooked. In many cases, there's simply no easy, clear-cut way to make a distinction between harmless speech/jokes/satire and harmful intent/inciting violence without taking into context who's speaking what/about/to whom.
It's quite telling that so much of what the free speech crowd think is being cencored or canceled involves so-called humor targeting vulnurable parts of society (That's the crowd Musk was addressing in his "Comedy is now legal" tweet made shortly after he took over).
I can't see how anyones civil rights are restricted by having more of a conversation about how the speech and language we use affect our society, but that is what many people apparently have an issue with, or see as a real danger for society.
Another reason why I'm so weary and deeply suspicious of this whole free speech/cancel culture debate is that there is a huuuuuuuuge overlap between people who think this is THE most important issue and politicans/political movements that are, for instance, banning thousands of books, or trying to limit civil rights like who the fuck consenting adults can marry, or limiting/denying basic healthcare to trans people.

[sandelic]

I can't see how anyones civil rights are restricted by having more of a conversation about how the speech and language we use affect our society, but that is what many people apparently have an issue with, or see as a real danger for society.

I see absolutely no evidence of conversation regarding that topic, both side just shout down each other and label one another with now completely empty terms like "incel" "woke" "privilege" and somehow think they are contributing to progress. 
But what one can observe - our society lost any tolerance for people who make mistakes.
People lose their jobs, their livelihood just because they say something ignorant or stupid these days. 
We don't engage anymore or teach people to do better. We just punish them.

[Wolkenkrabber]

Well perhaps I could have posted this in the "funny shit" thread or the WTF thread.

Anyway, as I understand it, Andrew Tate was so determined to win the "beef" he started with Greta that he gave away his location and got himself arrested/detained. It kinda feels like a plot from a tv show rather than real life. Can it really be true?

https://twitter.com/Esqueer_/status/1608580052220014592

https://twitter.com/Esqueer_/status/1608584447678631937

https://twitter.com/Esqueer_/status/1608588291900870657

The Daily Mail says it's true (!).


EDIT: Just a brief follow-on:
https://twitter.com/GretaThunberg/status/1608735970131849217

[Csar]

Who's this person?

[ThePumisher]

that follow-on is even better 

Who's this person?

Have to say that before Thunberg postet her "mailadress" i'd also never heard of him

edit: her mailadress-posting is now on 6 in that most likes twitter postings list

[shakermaker]

he is a disgusting misogynistic piece of shit.

if you want to be sickened, read on: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/06/andrew-tate-violent-misogynistic-world-of-tiktok-new-star

[MadPooter]

Assuming Andrew Tate is guilty of sex trafficking, glad to see that guy go down.

Unfortunately, it is not quite as entertaining as people thought it might be.

https://twitter.com/SaraSorcher/status/1608861801768255489

[MadPooter]

https://twitter.com/DrPooter/status/1610811082712690688

[shakermaker]

this speaker situation would be quite amusing if it weren't also getting in the way of our government actually doing shit.

[MadPooter]

this speaker situation would be quite amusing if it weren't also getting in the way of our government actually doing shit.

Agreed. 100%.

[Csar]

he is a disgusting misogynistic piece of shit.

if you want to be sickened, read on: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/06/andrew-tate-violent-misogynistic-world-of-tiktok-new-star

Ugh, so, your typical alpha baboon who gets to show off his red behind on social media - his sole source of attention. Just sad.

this speaker situation would be quite amusing if it weren't also getting in the way of our government actually doing shit.

Yeah, it's really tragic for the people since nothing gets done until the speaker is elected.
But at the same time I can't deny my clantestine, petty joy that this spineless opportunist gets a taste of what it means to pander to the extrimists and the right wing mob caucus. His spine only showed for like 5 min when he denounced Jan 6. in the chamber but immediately went missing shortly after he felt like bending the knee at Mar-a-Lago to secure his endorsement to finally become speaker of the house. Well deserved imo.
Hopefully they'll be getting over this as soon as possible so they can get back to business.

[satur8]

It will be such a relief when we finally agree on a Speaker so we can go from getting nothing done to instead getting nothing done that actually helps most average Americans.

[MadPooter]

Well now that that's over with we can see how (dys)functional the current Congress can be!

[MadPooter]

I don't know if any of you have been keeping up with the Andrew Callaghan story...

https://newsprince.xyz/2023/01/12/all-gas-no-brakes-andrew-callaghan-responds-to-sexual-misconduct-accusation/

Sounds like his M.O. was that he was a little creepy/pushy with girls--which seriously, guys should know better than that--but the person who started this whole thing was trying to extort Callaghan for money or else she would go public with her story of how them hooking up went.

All in all, it seems like it ends up being a parade of assholes. My apologies to any victims of sexual assault--this is a very sensitive topic and triggering for some.

But this does not seem to be a straightforward narrative.

[MadPooter]

This felt like a genuine apology from Andrew Callaghan.

[MadPooter]

Open question:

What does accountability look like to you? What should happen to someone who has been, for one reason or another, "cancelled"?

[Wolkenkrabber]

Open question:

What does accountability look like to you? What should happen to someone who has been, for one reason or another, "cancelled"?

Depends on what they've done. I'm not sure there's a one-size-fits-all answer to this.

https://twitter.com/BNOFeed/status/1617288529733632002

^I think this guy probably needs to lose his licence. Probably time to go get a job stacking shelves at the supermarket. But ulitimately his future as a doctor will be decided by a medical board, not by me. If he gets to keep his job he might not be my first choice of plastic surgeon (!), but I think that would be my prerogative to say: no thanks.

I remember reading a long interview with Monica Lewinski a few years ago. She talked about how everyone just expected her to disappear after those revelations. I seem to recall that Hillary Clinton attacked Lewinski more than she critiised her own husband. Lewinsky was kinda "cancelled" long before the "holier-than-thou's" on twitter ever existed. So perhaps this isn't as new a phenomenon as we might think.  Here's a Harpers Bazaar article from 2018: We all owe Monica Lewinsky an apology

To take one final example, the paedophile pop star Gary Glitter has been in and out of the UK news (and jail) for some time now. He's now 78 and just about to be released from jail again. In the unlikely event that he were to attempt to revive his pop career, do I think the media should play his music, interview him etc as part of the promotion cycle? No I don't. But would someone who is against "cancelling" agree with me? And what if he were guilty of say, manslaughter rather than paedophilia? Who decides whether the media would/should accomodate him?

Incidentally Gary Glitter has been previously sampled by the KLF (under their Timelords pseudonym) and he did actually have a couple of good Glam Rock tracks "back in the day". It saddens me that I can't enjoy those tunes. But I understand why he doesn't get played and I'd struggle to enjoy those songs without thinking "paedo".

EDIT: Here's the track that was sampled. It was also used in Joker for the stair dancing scene. There are some interesting YT comments underneath it.

[MadPooter]

[Bosco]

@Wolkenkrabber

I'm one of those people that can remove the art from the artist. I wasn't originally like this, but as you become more aware (not trying to preach to you, just spouting my opinion), there's countless names that could be mentioned which have crossed moral barriers (some more unforgivable then others). Life is too short to deny stuff that might intrigue you.

For example, I can't help but love most of the music that Phil Spector help produce and all the artists that were deeply influenced by his style. Do I dismiss that he is a murder and overall horrible person? No.  But he created something significant in this world, and it meant something to a lot of artists I enjoy.

That being said, I feel horrible for any victims out there. In no way am I trying to convince victims or surviving family members of victims, to feel the same way.

By the way, I love Gary Glitters "Hey" song aka Rock n' Roll part 2


Honestly, I hate the question you asked Madpooter. This is the type of loaded questioning that gets everyone in trouble post-thanksgiving meal.