Discussions on difficult subjects

[sandelic]

Prayers for Paris,I know they announced it will be rebuilt but it wont be the same.

Well, yes, it's not the same building it was in 13th century even before this fire, and it will not be exactly the same after they rebuild it.
But it will always be a monument to human achievement.

[ThePumisher]

https://register.ubisoft.com/acu-notredame-giveaway/en-GB

[sandelic]

https://register.ubisoft.com/acu-notredame-giveaway/en-GB

Thanks a bunch, Pum!

[Bosco]

Major United State cities going to shambles right now.

I wish all the protesters safety. Some of the videos I've seen have been absolutely terrible, and all this happening while a Pandemic going on.

George Floyd, your death was not justified, and I'm in full support of the black community that will not condone this shit anymore.

That's about all I can say as a suburban white guy.

[inchemwetrust]

Major United State cities going to shambles right now.

I wish all the protesters safety. Some of the videos I've seen have been absolutely terrible, and all this happening while a Pandemic going on.

George Floyd, your death was not justified, and I'm in full support of the black community that will not condone this shit anymore.

That's about all I can say as a suburban white guy.

As a Mexican, I'm just tired of seeing some of the police being dicks with their stupid apprehend tactics, false arrests, and wrongful detainment. This has been going on for years And never lets up, despite the fact that so many other George Floyds were swept under the rug and was hidden to cover up for the police. But when it gets televised and they get caught red handed, nothing is done to punish them. Police unions will look after themselves and look the other way when a black man is murdered. Not all police are bad, and I say this because I have family in law enforcement,and they also have opinions too, and they agree that George Floyds death was wrong and terrible, and want to be on the same side of the peaceful protesters, but they get ignored and despised because they're already put in the category of 'if a cop kills an innocent person, than ALL cops are bad!" I thing the internet already shows some videos with protesters and cops showing solidarity.

..and then there's some video of cops being straight-up assholes,!

I was just talking to my old man and he said, "have we learned anything from the '65 riots, the '92 riots (Rodney King), and now 2020?"

Fucking looters! They're just taking steps back and sending the worse message.

Be safe out their Bosco and the rest of you forumites. Hold Tight Los Angeles!

[WhiteNoise]

As an equally suburban white guy I don't have a lot I can say myself either - but I can go to a protest and be counted in the numbers and help discriminated voices ring louder. Greater Lafayette, Indiana is not particularly big; it's often said this place has all the difficulties of a large city and all the shortcomings of a small town, and it's very true - so when I say the march last night was massive and unbelievably encouraging, I mean it. Something like 6-7 blocks of streets covered at once. Largely incredibly peaceful. Virtually everyone wore masks. Mayors came out in solidarity and gave speeches. Representation from everyone, all races and walks of life, LGBT and libertarian gun nuts and pastors and priests and bleeding hearts waving peace flags united.

The most powerful two moments came when we reached the police department training center - decked with half a dozen police officers in full tactical gear on the roof. We surrounded the place, taking a knee. And every officer took their knees in return.



Some time after, some of the crowd near the building started banging on the doors of the building. Tensions rose as the officers stood and moved to the door ordering them to stop. Before anything could break out, a single man loudly shouted "let's keep moving, let's keep marching" and on his own rallied the entire crowd to take the march back downtown, diffusing the situation effortlessly.

It'd be easy to focus on the windows broken late in the night, the vandalized courthouse, the tear gas shot and state police who moved in much later in the night. But that wasn't the crowd I saw. There's assholes taking advantage of this situation and they're not AT ALL representative of the much larger crowds marching loudly and peacefully. People demand change and they understand the world doesn't have to burn to make it happen; no matter how much it's completely justified (property can be replaced, human lives cannot, and this shit has gone on for too long).

I know things are shaken up much more dangerously elsewhere - I hope you all are safe, but that you're also doing whatever tiny bit you can to help these protests and this message. Staying silent right now is taking the side that you're tolerant of systemic racism, police militarization, and brutality, that you're okay with police breaking the car windows of two college students and tazing them simply for driving in the area, shooting non-protesting civilians standing on their own front porch after gleefully shouting "light em up", directly macing a 9 year old girl, and

from r/PublicFreakout

- and that you're okay with the thousands upon thousands of counts of murder and violence and abuse, both unjustly fueled by racism and unchecked power, that led to these protests happening in the first place. This just isn't a time for sitting on a fence.

Killer Mike of Run the Jewels puts it better than I've heard anywhere else -

[Bosco]

I'm proud of you guys. It's always warming knowing we have quality and understanding people on this forum.

[Csar]

I second that, Bosco! I am proud of you guys as well and am once more reassured to have found a wonderful place of like-minded people who share a similar humanistic and open mindset.
The whole situation across the pond is dismaying and unfathomable. The supposed leaders at the top appear to be unable and/or unwilling to heal and unite which makes everything even grimmer.

I've just watched Trevor Noah's analysis about all that. What he has to say about society is really powerful in my opinion. Over the last couple of years, I have gained huge respect for the guy as he seems to be one of a rarer kind of prominent comedians out there who also have deeper things to share than just making a quick joke.

Please stay safe if you participate in those protests and look out for each other and keep things civil.

[Stefan]

As a white person living in a wealthy central european country, it took me embarrassingly long to figure out that is is simply not enough just to be not racist, but if there's ever going to be any change for the better, we have to be actively antiracist and antifascist. Especially everybody who is privileged enough to never be affected by systemic and/or direct racism. The very least we can do is listen to all those voices who raise awareness about these issues.
If the protests seem angry and frustrated, it's most likely because the calm voices were usually ignored.

These five minutes are some of the best statements I've heard about what's going on in the US right now: https://twitter.com/WailQ/status/1266655401963065344


Also, this is a Chembros fan forum, so I'm glad to see they've put out a clear statement:
https://twitter.com/ChemBros/status/1267533020212408321

[Stefan]

The supposed leaders at the top appear to be unable and/or unwilling to heal and unite which makes everything even grimmer.

Haha "unwilling", Trump is a white supremacist who actively wants the protests to escalate further, so that he can stage himself as the strong man who stomps the violence down. And of course he is protected by his party, because they're either on his side or stand by silently because it's the convenient way to keep their power and wealth.

[Csar]

Haha "unwilling", Trump is a white supremacist who actively wants the protests to escalate further, so that he can stage himself as the strong man who stomps the violence down. And of course he is protected by his party, because they're either on his side or stand by silently because it's the convenient way to keep their power and wealth.

Yeah, well, I didn't want it to be about him in my post so I left it at that.

I agree with almost all you've said. But to be honest, I don't even know whether he is a true white supremacist or not. What I do know is that he is an opportunist and an egotist who believes he's the hub of the world. It's all about him and how he can take advantage of everything. These types of persons are even worse as they don't have any real conviction at all and change their tune to whatever they think might benefit them. At the moment, he's fully subscribed to a far right base which he's pandering to and which he believes he needs to win come November.

And he has no sense of genuine empathy at all. Not one shred.

[satur8]

Something non-Americans may not take into consideration is how much ignorance, hate, and stupidity there is over here. I mean, we know you KNOW, but despite current events there is still 30%-40% of the populace that is okay with all of this...or that are actually in support of it. Family. Neighbors. Co-Workers. It's bad enough that we have idiots getting into fights with retail workers because they have to wear masks, but now there is also a constant tension with people you know for stupids shit they say or feel about protests, riots, and militarized police. I'm somewhat lucky as my family is small and believe love is love, people are people: I removed myself from the larger racist family years ago. But I have a good friend that is suffering because it has just come to light exactly how racist their family is, and they might be in the middle of a split like I did. It's an emotional drain, especially now. But, it must be done. It's just another element in everyone's difficult days right now.

Be silent and complicit or alienate people around you. Those are the only true choices. Unfortunately, the 'type' that defaults to "cops are justified/black deserves this/Trump is a good leader" certainly aren't willing to listen, and be it family, neighbors, or co-workers, it makes for further division, isolation, and negativity. (And no, news events like this are not necessarily appropriate political conversations at work, but trust me, it is easy to tell who is an ally and who is not).  Also, we seem to have a lot of self-identified "middle ground" people here that believe their black friends are okay, but it's the OTHER black people they don't know that are the problem. It's that type of subtle racism they simply won't acknowledge that is so frustrating and keeping us from making progress. It is acceptance of the systematic oppression despite what the world can see. That, and their inability to listen, grow, or care.

And if this is the start of an uncomfortable revolution, so be it. Most Americans think racism was defeated in the Civil Rights movement 50 years ago, and before that they believed simply ending slavery was the end of the conversation. And many, many people see no issues with militarized police (via taxation) and don't care that our medical workers are sorely under-supplied with PPE due to capitalistic policies, and they certainly won't acknowledge the relationship. And many still refuse to acknowledge the economic barriers and disadvantages forced on POC for hunhreds of years. Is any of this a surprise? No? Americans ended the career of a star athlete because he dared to speak up about race based police brutality. Americans looked away from the brown kids separated from their asylum seeking families and put in cages. Americans watched 8 years of racism directed towards the first black President, be it from political sabotage to pundit attacks to hateful memes. Americans have allowed this and I'm glad the world is watching: many of us pretend to be better than those "evil" oppressive countries, but the real difference is that we have the patriotic marketing and reputation behind us.

But for me personally on the day to day I am fortunate. I am employed, my family is healthy, and we are privileged to not be in direct immediate danger. I am using my voice and using it loudly to educate when I can, but the people who need to hear it are largely not receptive (or aggressively fighting against it).

I am grateful for this peaceful, intelligent international community of brothers and sisters, and I am proud of the Chemical Brothers for making a clear statement when they didn't have to.

[Bosco]

You hate to hear stories of separation from families because of political or social issues. I'm sorry that you had to result to that Satur8, and that your friend is going through a similar issue.

My immediate family is a solid bunch in terms of like-mindedness. 5 different flavors of people that certainly can clash on petty indifferences, but a solid unit when it comes to the voting booth and social commentary.

My extended family on the other hand, is a mixed bag. A very dependable and loving bunch, yet some stuck on the wrong political side for reasons that I can't explain without indulging in stereotyping, myself.

I think the most frustrating part with everything that is unfolding (from pandemic to civil rights/equality/racism), is the idea of progression in this country has been challenged, disrupted, and ignored in so many ways. And to be further critical with this, fundamental change was there for the taking earlier this year with Bernie and Warren leading the way. Somehow we got wrapped up in the fact of chasing Obama's shadow rather than seek fast tracked policy reform that the public is so desperately clamoring for.

I know I told Satur8 it's time to move on when he was upset after Bernie's defeat, but now, I'm pissed.

Joe, you better make this count.

[Bosco]

Watching Tucker Carlson's spin the past few nights has been quite the trip. I don't advise it, but he did bring a piece of hypocrisy forwards that concerns me about the protests.

While protests continue, at what point are we going to let the voice of public health crisis ring the loudest? That's not in his exact words (Tucker more-so explains it as liberal fueled strategy to stymie the White House), but it's mostly the question I've been asking myself since the protesting has prolonged.

Tucker has no solid ground though, because this is the same news network that has pumped the narrative of denouncing the severity of Coronavirus, and again, a liberal controlled conspiracy.

Long story short. Yeah, I support the protests, I want equality, justice, and reform. But I'm really concerned about the Coronavirus. Does that make me racist?

[Csar]

Ooof, Tucker Carlson, aye?!? You're a trooper, Bosco! Well, at the moment, emotions and anger are fresh and the peoples' urge to vent their grievances that have bottled up over all these decades is an immediate reaction to all of this. Another driver in my opinion is that there's an economic crisis looming, many lost their jobs. In this this emotion-laden situation, logic and reason with respect to the pandemic are set aside to a degree - although, I saw lots of people wearing masks fortunately. I guess the current issue seems more palpable right now than an invisible virus. And I believe folks out there see a reasonable opportunity to make real change which gives them courage and hope. This, too, propels the momentum.

That is something Tucker Carlson - an entitled, rich, feeding-of-hatred-and-division opinion-host - can't possibly understand. None of these hate-show hosts can because that's not their business model. Their business is to find cracks in society and exploid them for monetary gain and personal wealth.

[ThePumisher]

Tried to not say something on this topic here because it's easy to say something from 4000 miles away (and with the worst racist background you can imagine that our country went through 80 years ago), but do you really think this all will change if a democrat will sit in that chair in oval office? I don't think it will change anything because racism is mostly something thats totally deeper. A lot of people are racists and don't even know it - doing something here, saying something there and not even realise it offends others. They grew up with this and think it's normal. Don't get me wrong, i'm not the hugest fan of the republican party and me thinks that Trump is not even the worst that could happen to the States, but in fact he is the worst that could happened to this whole planet (he and that brazillian guy). Thing is that somehow i believe he will get another four years, and that the riots will focus this even more. Yes, you have to stand up and raise your voice, otherwise nothing will change, but riots and looting are not the best way of changing anything.

[Bosco]

Another driver in my opinion is that there's an economic crisis looming, many lost their jobs. In this this emotion-laden situation, logic and reason with respect to the pandemic are set aside to a degree - although, I saw lots of people wearing masks fortunately. I guess the current issue seems more palpable right now than an invisible virus. And I believe folks out there see a reasonable opportunity to make real change which gives them courage and hope. This, too, propels the momentum.

Economic crisis you say? America's economy is seemingly depression proof if you track the market. Its supports are made of the most impressive house of cards, just waiting for the next party to open the proverbial barn door, only to be epically knocked down with the slightest of breeze.

Tried to not say something on this topic here because it's easy to say something from 4000 miles away (and with the worst racist background you can imagine that our country went through 80 years ago), but do you really think this all will change if a democrat will sit in that chair in oval office? I don't think it will change anything because racism is mostly something thats totally deeper. A lot of people are racists and don't even know it - doing something here, saying something there and not even realise it offends others. They grew up with this and think it's normal. Don't get me wrong, i'm not the hugest fan of the republican party and me thinks that Trump is not even the worst that could happen to the States, but in fact he is the worst that could happened to this whole planet (he and that brazillian guy). Thing is that somehow i believe he will get another four years, and that the riots will focus this even more. Yes, you have to stand up and raise your voice, otherwise nothing will change, but riots and looting are not the best way of changing anything.

You're not wrong. I was still in belief Donald was still a pretty solid favorite for re-election before this George Floyd incident got extrapolated. But this could be a nail in the coffin for him on how badly he has responded to this situation.

I agree, no matter how hard you try, people will continue to be racist. However, it's my belief majority of people will gravitate to sympathy and empathy in trying times like this (even if it's temporarily). You can only put the public on tilt for so long until they want some sanity. Donald is toast.

[satur8]

but do you really think this all will change if a democrat will sit in that chair in oval office?

No, I don't. If Bernie would have been the nominee AND we had sweeping chair swaps in Congress...and that includes some Democrats getting primaried out...then yes, I think we would have seen a change. Actually, that very act would have been the start of the change. As it is, Biden is weak and has many similarities to Trump in policy and person, but people will ignore it all becasue he was statesman Obama's right hand man. Yes, what we are seeing today is change, but politically I am not hopeful for satisfying and immediate reform.

You're not wrong. I was still in belief Donald was still a pretty solid favorite for re-election before this George Floyd incident got extrapolated. But this could be a nail in the coffin for him on how badly he has responded to this situation.

These are pretty much my thoughts as well. Imagine if that cop was just held accountable as he should have been. The alternate timeline has a Trump favored to win DESPITE his botched pandemic response. That's how bad Biden is.

Sadly, it is well within the realm of possibility that this idiot declares Marshall Law or starts a civil war just to stay in power. What's worse, his followers were armed to the teeth and willing to fight the tyranny of "wearing masks", but now they are silent or cheering while legitimate tyranny is attacking the peaceful protesters they perceive as 'enemies'.

Historically speaking, this moment in time will not be forgotten. It's not often that you KNOW you're living that.

[MadPooter]

The discussion about race has become impossible to engage in.

Here's a quick test to determine if you're racist, according to popular opinion.

Are you critical of any aspect of the Black Lives Matter movement?

Are you white and trying to give your opinion about how we should manage our police?

Are you discussing how many people our police forces kill each year without talking about their race?

If you are talking about violence against the black community, are you trying to include considerations of violence within that community?

If someone exhibits any questionable behavior outside of their workplace that might be deemed racist, do you believe that the person doesn't immediately deserve to be fired?

Do you value human lives without first considering what race they are?

Do you have an opinion about how people should protest?

Have you not adequately considered what race you are before contributing to a discussion about how to handle ourselves as a nation?

If you answered yes to any of those questions, you're racist.

There's no discussion in the United States about race. There are only people shouting at the top of their lungs with fingers in their ears.

And I'm sitting here listening, and I'm certainly sympathetic. And I'm trying to be understanding. And I'm trying to be patient.

My hope is that the explanation for the current political climate is that our economy is in shambles and the behavior of police has gotten so out of hand and abhorrent that people simply demand change regardless of their tone and content, and they have a reasonable basis to do so.

But ultimately my hope is that people start to see the changes that we have begun to make, such as in Colorado, in Kentucky, in our Courts across the country, and see that there is even hope in the federal government.

My hope is that people will start to take faith in the justice system, and see that it has already started to address instances of extreme injustice.

But even my hope is tempered. And I'm going to be watching, hoping history doesn't repeat itself. And I have no doubt the nation will as well.

Because if the law fails us, even I start to think about picking up a motherfucking molotov.

So let's hope that we see four police officers who were working their beat in Minneapolis sentenced for the crime of murder, at least. That's a good start.

[satur8]

Madpooter - I have to say, most of my conversations about race have gone differently for me than what you have posted. I understand that geography and circles make a difference, but I took your commentary as a snapshot of the national picture. And I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, only that I have had a different experience. Fortunately, I have started my journey of understanding well before this became a nightly news conversation, but I have been called an ally, not a racist.

In my experience, most of the resistance against discussion has come from white people, and most of the people of color I've spoken with are receptive to discuss. At the same time, they don't believe it is their responsibility to educate, and I think that is fair, too. They think if we don't know we need to educate ourselves, and yes, they do feel we should already know. And I agree with them. Van Jones noted how interesting it is for the black community to suddenly have 20 million white allies looking for leadership, so this is new to everybody. I agree with them in the sense that we need to spend less time talking and more time listening. But when you say people should "start to take faith in the justice system, and see that it has already started to address instances of extreme injustice", if you don't understand why people don't have this faith or appreciation for baby steps, you may have a little more listening to do. And regarding being critical of the Black Lives Movement, I may not personally be a fan of riots and looting, but at the same time, I am not going to tell oppressed people how to effectively be heard after 400 years of oppressive racism, abused authority, and capitalism stacked against targeted communities. And realistically, how many of these aggressions were instigated by police or white supremacists? What does one with no power do when not given the opportunity to assemble and peacefully protest as guaranteed in the constitution? Do I realize not all POC will see me as an ally and some have contempt for me just for the color of MY skin? I do. And I also understand why. This is all my counterpoint as someone who has not had a particularly good or successful life, but still understands the fundamentals of my straight white male privilege. None of this is directed at you specifically, although your faith in the system is definitely not shared by many.

And as the news and constant coverage slows down on these issues, I am hoping the momentum does not. We'll find out the next time a cop murders someone on camera,again. Will they keep their job and not face the justice system, or has the precedent become the norm? It remains to be seen, but history is not on the side of the black community.

Meanwhile, America is a mess for other reasons even if BLM is getting less coverage at the moment. COVID is still spreading and citizens don't realize the world is building a wall around us. Assholes won't wear masks as directed and become violent, either threatening physical force or chemical warfare with their spit. People think everything should be status quo, and some still don't even believe this is a threat. Trump and his ilk are as buffoonishly dangerous as ever, and his followers show no sign of seeing the problem. Biden is the presumptive answer, and I can't imagine a worse scenario to combat this because little will change other than the names and the overt brazenness of bolstering the rich. I am raising a tween that starts middle school and he is either going to miss the important experience or be forced to attend with children of families that don't take this seriously in a school that can't possibly enforce the precautions necessary. And socially he is alone and there is very little I can do but talk to him daily. And on top of everything, I'm nearing 50 and am frustrated with my job, but with security, healthcare, and the lack of desire to start over anywhere at my age in this situation, I feel literally trapped. And I still have it better than many, so I somewhat feel selfish, too. I would say I am falling into a deep depression, but I have been there in the past and I am managing to keep my sanity out of pure strength for my family. But I cannot remember the last time I was happy or hopeful. I didn't intend to make the tail end of this about me, but it was free flow typing and I suppose all of this falls under difficult subjects and how I am coping.