The ChemBase

So.

Hey everyone.

I wondered if any of you might want to engage in some discussion about things which are a little treacherous to navigate in normal conversations.
Having spent the last half an hour reading reviews of A Wrinkle In Time (and having seen it today), and following that Annihilation review I shared yesterday, I feel like I want to get stuck into some healthy discussion about things like representation and equality. I don't really have many people IRL I can just dive into a serious talk with, but I'm interested to get some opinions and thoughts.

If this sounds like a terrible idea, or not the place to have a discussion, I'll just use my magical moderator powers to trash this topic. But if not... Let me know and I'll get started with some thoughts I've had in the last few days.

I think these forums can be a good place to discuss interests, current events, topics to find common bonds and share ideas/outlooks. I have not seen Wrinkle In Time yet and admittedly it has been decades since I've read the book, so erm... can't really engage much there..

Then again, these days I tend to type less and do want to read more. Always find stuff said in our corner of the Internet, is of interest.

Sounds good, Enjoyed. You haven't followed up yet, but I think it's safe to say this community welcomes your thoughts.

For me, I find it amusing that the same audience that for years has enjoyed a male dominant white-washed Hollywood is suddenly speaking out against female directors, black casts, and general diversity in storytelling and production. I immediately think of films like Wonder Woman, Black Panther, and the Disney era of Star Wars and how these benchmark blockbusters are riddled with controversy and labeled as leftest agendas. I'm a long time fan of Star Wars but think a lot of the fans...especially older fans like myself...have been the worst. Guess they're not so much like me after all. I am a fan of equality and support diversity and creativity in the arts and for life in general. And for Star Wars specifically I've found almost all of the criticism regarding the female and non-white characters and executives to be comical.

It's not just the entertainment industry, either. From a U.S. perspective I thought we crossed several hurdles once Obama was elected president. However, 8 years of continual racist commentary coupled with partisan sabotage ended in the election of the current fool, and I can honestly say I am repulsed by the current regressive movements in America and worldwide. I believe the millennials and younger generation can fix this in ways that us gen-xers failed (and the boomers abandoned), but a true movement needs to happen soon before it is too late.

So speak up, even when your voice is alone or it's not considered polite. And even if it turns out you or others completely disagree with me, be it from cultural upbringing, negative experiences,  or simple closed-mindedness, I believe the only way people can work it out is to listen to each other.

Dude, I completely agree.
Whether it was my upbringing specifically or some other outside factors (without sounding too mean, I do wonder if intelligence - or rather a more open way of exploring ideas in one's own head - is to blame), I do find myself leaning a lot to the left. And I understand that people who have had different experiences and different upbringings maybe can't even comprehend how 'the other side' might think. But for me, I feel like the most important aspect of equality comes down to - "who cares".
An actor is black, an actor is white, an actor is female, an actor is a kid. Who cares? Are they good? Yes? No? That's what the discussion should be about. If a Chinese actress and a black actor are really ruining your experience of the movie, then that sounds like a problem for you, not for the people making the movie. If your criticism is that Finn and Rose's storyline felt unnecessary to the plot and ultimately detracted from the flow of the movie - that's a different issue.

Interestingly, I just watched the new Ricky Gervais stand up yesterday. At the end he talks about people taking offence to things and he used a great analogy. Getting offended about something like a joke about religion or the inclusion of an actor from a different race, is like walking into a town square, seeing a poster for guitar lessons and then getting angry because you don't want guitar lessons. Who cares? You don't want guitar lessons? Don't have guitar lessons. It's not for you. You don't want to enjoy a movie franchise anymore because it has people of a different race in it? Don't go see anymore of the movies then. It was funny to begin with but at some point it just becomes stupid. What are they hoping to achieve by getting mad about the 'left wing' agenda? All you do is push it more by encouraging people to defend it.

This actually ties in with what my initial intention was when I started this topic.

Firstly, let me preface this by saying that:
1. I am a straight, white male from the UK (now living in the States) and I'm not going to pretend that my opinions or feelings on things are representative of all. I know they are warped in their way.
2. I understand this is a very complicated issue and that, arguably, some movement forward (no matter how strained) is better than no movement forward.

Here's the thing I was really struggling with...

Black Panther is a revelation because it stars a predominantly black cast. Annihilation, or the new Ghostbusters if you want, is a step forward because it's a female led movie.
That's great. I'm all for the opportunities of everyone. I really am. But what I don't understand, and can't see the benefit of, is drawing so much bloody attention to it. Does that not just end up being entirely detrimental to the cause?
You know what makes black people or women seem like they are different from white men? Talking about a movie that happens to star them as some big new different thing. How do we move towards equality if we're constantly pointing out the fact that they are different?
Annihilation is actually a really interesting one for me because, again - perhaps due to my upbringing and my position as a comfortable white male - I didn't care who was in it. It honestly, and I really mean this, honestly didn't occur to me that the cast was all women until I watched that Red Letter Media review. I just went to see a sci-fi movie by a director I like and experienced the movie as a movie. Isn't that the exact thing that feminism is striving towards? A time where anyone going to the movies can see anyone of any race or gender or sexual orientation and just enjoy the movie without seeing a difference?
Now, take Black Panther. So much publicity about the cast and how much of a giant step it is for black people to see themselves represented on screen. Now I'm going into a movie seeing something that I'm told is different from me. You know what didn't seem different to me as a kid? Blade. I saw that movie pretty young and instantly wanted to be a bad ass vampire hunter. It literally didn't occur to me that there was any difference between him and James Bond. It was a character I thought was cool and that was it.

Now. I had this discussion with my wife the other day (that's actually the reason I didn't post for a while. I had a really fulfilling talk with her about it and I actually felt way more satiated by the results than I was expecting and didn't feel the need to speak out about it as much as when I originally posted - Side note. I freaking LOVE my wife) and she very wisely said that I was not a black, and therefore I can't legitimately relate to what it was like growing up seeing white or black actors on screen. With the world essentially making minorities feel less included and feel like they aren't as equal, there's a good chance that seeing a black actor on screen as a kid had a much more positive effect. I can see that being true. And by no means am I trying to suggest that it's wrong for anyone to be positively affected by the recent inclusion of more types of people on screen. But. The idea that kids need to see themselves represented on screen, so that they can relate, seems fraught when you're suggesting they can only relate to people of their own race or gender.

(I will stop soon. I promise)

A Wrinkle in Time links to this too as a couple of reviews talk about how the film missed an opportunity to explore what it is like growing up as a mixed race child. And that kids seeing themselves on screen, dealing with those kind of issues, could be empowering. Here, I definitely agree. There are obviously issues that only specific types of people experience and seeing that dealt with on screen would be good for everyone. But that is to do with the characters more than simply what they look like. Kids should be able to watch any movie and relate to any kid no matter what race, because they should be being taught that it doesn't matter what you look like. Instead though, it feels like people are being directed towards the differences. Having them pointed out and spotlighted.

Eugh. I don't know. As I said. Incredibly tricky subject to which it really seems like there's no right answer or approach. There should absolutely be more movies with women and more with black actors and more with gay characters and all other representations of people on earth. But what's the point if the moment they are included they are made separate by focusing on how forward thinking it is to have them included?

Final thought.

The Oscars. There may be a very real and concerning reason that more female directors aren't given the opportunity to make movies in Hollywood - attention should definitely be brought to that. I don't think it should come in the form of shaming the male nominees of various categories though. Being 1 of 4 men nominated for best director doesn't stop Guillermo Del Toro from being a great one. The latter half of this article (https://www.teenvogue.com/story/emma-stone-oscars-2018-introduction-white-feminism) does a pretty good job of explaining what I mean.

To conclude. I love you all. I don't have the answers, just some thoughts. And I definitely appreciate any discussion on it because I know deep down I'm misunderstanding lots of things and I want to learn.

I appreciate the topic and your thoughts. And in direct response, I agree that not EVERY thing needs to be SOMETHING. But I think your wife has some good insight and I agree sometimes these things ARE important. It's especially the case when those whom would hate for the sake of hate are drawing attention to the same logistics...it's almost as if these small milestones are indeed worth celebrating. It's when these milestones become commonplace that the discussion can end, and we're getting there.

But I will break down one small but interesting reason why Black Panther, with its 'minority majority cast and crew', has a significant cultural impact despite its being a film that goes beyond color. There is a toy commercial for role play Black Panther gear that features 3 kids, all non-white. It's being advertised like any Marvel product during any cartoon block. But it is distinctly unique and inspiring that kids are seeing themselves not only as President, and not only as STEM-based superhero kings, but also as regular kids on regular advertisements who are not just a minority, but are the focus in a positive light. The greatest form of equality is for no child to feel like a token, and I dig it.

Quote from: satur8 on Mar 14, 2018, 20:30

The greatest form of equality is for no child to feel like a token, and I dig it.

Agreed. Sort of celebrating the normalness of everyone, equally. That is cool.

I hadn't considered that those who would hate for hate's sake would potentially land the same arguments. I think what felt important for me was that Annihilation crept out without anyone talking about it as a feminist movie, despite it clearly being a great step in the right direction. In comparison to say, Wonder Woman, it felt refreshing to be able to experience a film with other members of the public that was simply an interesting sci-fi that happened to have all female characters. Black Panther also worked for the portrayal of women in cinema I thought. And more so than Wonder Woman, though I enjoyed that movie more.
I forget where I was going with this. But yes, I guess the point is less about the milestones and how they are celebrated, but with the ultimate destination - where these kinds of movies are just considered normal.

I also didn't think twice about annihilation being an all female cast I just enjoyed the whole movie TBH. But also maybe symbolic to the nature of the subject and narrative with hidden meanings perhaps.

I'm all for anything as long as it seems it belongs in the film and not forced because its the latest trending thing to do.

To add another layer, should gay and trans characters be only played by gay and trans people? There are some good films/ TV series that are now in the mainstream that have these characters but played by mostly by straight white men still. Having said that these actors have done a good/convincing job but it does make you think.

I haven't watched Black Panther yet, will wait until on Netflix I guess now but am intrigued as it has split critics addressing exploitation and dilution of culture etc. but at the same time something so big on a big platform still could be a positive regardless without looking too deep into it and just taking it for what it is. A comic book movie for the masses where people just want to escape for a while.

https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/976168035064086534

Right wing comedian:
https://twitter.com/andrewlawrence/status/976151993566801920

Not-so-right-wing comedian:
https://twitter.com/rickygervais/status/976115287991910400

Jewish comedian:
https://twitter.com/Baddiel/status/976179441440260100


Good luck everybody! Byeee.

I would just like to point out that Freedom of Speech in Europe is NOT the same as in USA.
European comes with certain restrictions. Now is that a good or bad thing, is another matter.
Quite a difficult one.

I couldn't figure out the best place for this. Happy for it to be moved to a different thread if needs be.
Anyone seen this? I thought it was gutsy, and by the end it went for everybody. Lots of awkward silence in the room. Might not have been an approproate tone under Obama (or other presidents) but right for Trump I thought. I suspect fans of hard hitting comedians will look back on this as a touchstone in years to come.

Some people think Wolfe made overly personal comments about Huckabee Sanders. If you watch Sanders closely you'll see she's actually smiling at the "perfect smoky eye" comment. The smile falls away with Wolfe's paraphrased 'Mabelline' strapline, "Maybe she's born with it, maybe it's lies" (around 14 mins). I just wish Trump had been there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDbx1uArVOM

https://twitter.com/kharyp/status/991288839326126081

I noticed Netflix jumped straight on it and gave her own show which I'll be intrigued by. Theres some hit and misses comedy wise on Netflix hopefully thats a good one.

Continuing on from the Black Panther thing after watching the new Avengers, there was just one line that didn't sit well for me even after I accepted Black Panther was just some light entertainment in terms of cultural appropriation for it. It was when they were discussing opening up the country/city to outsiders and what would be good like the Olympics (which was fine) but Starbucks as well. Considering Starbucks aren't entirely innocent in terms of their work ethic in the past and the fact its coffee too.

Then the whole Kanye West thing thats going on...

I found it hilarious how many in the media reacted to Michelle Wolf's gig. Instead of reading between lines, many of them were only looking at the surface of their jabs. Most of her lines, like the Sanders's burnt-facts-smokey-eyes (fyi Sanders is constantly tormenting or otherwise twisting truth and facts etc.) and that abortion part were not just simple jokes, they were meant to show the hypocrisy of those politcal actors and were direct references to recent news topics (e.g. that RNC guy who allegedly payed off a mistress who also had an abortion, or that Tim Murphy congress guy). Lots of Wolf's jokes didn't all fall into the burst-into-laughter category, but that's justifed given that truth isn't always that funny.
Funny, however, was the fact that Sanders didn't wear smokey eyes in her latest press briefings after that dinner.

The state of our nation:

The President is repeatedly caught in lies. Outrageous, conflicting lies.
His press secretary constantly perpetuates the lies, no matter how ridiculous she sounds.
The media enables or ignores the lying.
The people believe the lies, or become numb to the point of tolerance, apathy and inaction.
The 'liberal' comedian is loudly marginalized for bringing attention to all of this.

And it is so much worse living with the stupid people that buy into it, but this right here has become normalized in the United States of America.

Many here aren't FB friends with me, but I follow domestic politics pretty closely (and follow the world as well). For those of us here whom want change, there is a bigger issue. Yes, roughly 2/3 of the nation wants Trump out, but we continue to be manipulated on both sides. You may or may not know about the corruption regarding the DNC (Democratic National Convention) in relation to the nomination of Hillary Clinton as the opposition to Trump, but many forward thinking people...particularly, but not limited to, younger Americans...wanted a progressive candidate like Bernie Sanders. Democratic Socialism is rising in popularity here but is actively being throttled by the so-called 'liberal' party leaders and ignored by mainstream corporate media. A lot of Americans are looking for a mid-term Congressional swing in 2018 and a Presidential change in 2020. However, Democrats (the establishment party opposed to Trump policies) want those changes relegated to the old-school politics of corporate and banking sponsorship. Anyone that is opposed to this way of thinking...anyone that can bring true change...anyone that believes the rich should be taxed higher and the money spent on military should go to education and healthcare...is being squeezed out of the official process, just like Bernie was. Despite everything that went down in 2016 and 2017, few lessons were learned on our political stage and our best chance of beating Trump and men like him will be a party that is satisfied being "not Trump". It's disappointing.

Myself and others do what we can to get the right people in at local levels, but as was proven in 2016, and despite the American pride in our system of democracy,  we have surprisingly little control over the bigger stage. I know it's very 'American' of me to assume the world is familiar with the ins and outs of our political system, but I also know that realistically the world does pay attention to the United States. I usually don't make this type of commentary here, but it is important to me that you brothers and sisters here know that for us, it's not just Trump that is the issue. It is an overwhelming system of corruption that is stifling progress from all sides...and most Americans don't seem to understand this.

Trump is a big deal. He's constantly in daily news headlines/reports in Australia as well. (the other side of the world) We (the country) have our own shit to deal with locally as well but because we are allies what he does, we will still feel the ripple effect of. Do you guys know about Pine Gap? its a not so secret now US military base out in the Australian desert. Netflix have commissioned an Australian produced series about it which is in the making even now.

MIKL - I was not familiar with Pine Gap but have since looked it up. tnx...and I'm sure you guys know not all of us are fans of the US military complex...

Non-US brothers and sisters...Does your media generally report that Trump and his policies are unpopular in America, or does he simply fall under the perception of the American image? Does the world realize we are suffering major political polarization and partisan strife in our Congress (which enables and embolden's Trump), or is he simply the face of it all?

For instance, I personally follow BBC News and am far more informed on the workings of the UK, and even the middle east or North Korea, then I am of Australia whom is a quiet ally (relatively speaking). But I do try to pay attention.

I know our mess is center stage to the world, but I don't know how much of the world knows we are generally as unhappy with this mess as you are. The scariest part is there is very little we can do about it.

I'm sure others have thoughts, even if they are unfavorable. I know talking politics is generally frowned upon in society, but this is a great international group and private. We already respect our brothers...I say open up.

The Australian media does cover both sides of Trump and we do know (to an extent the mainstream media outlets reveal) on how America at the moment is more divided possibly than ever before in quite some time with what is happening over there. We know what America knows and feels basically generally but of course theres always more to it. And because Julian Assange is Australian he does get some coverage as well where he leaks international political information that gets reported on too.

Even just recently Hillary Clinton just did some talks this week here in Melbourne and Sydney and didn't hold back on anything. Even warning Australia about our increasing alliance with China and the propaganda coming from there threatening Democracy as a whole for the country.

Remember when America was all about the following: "Give me your tired, your poor,your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..."

What are we currently doing? We are punishing those coming here seeking asylum from violence. We are separating their children and putting them in concentration camps, and then prosecuting the parents in bullshit trials and sending them back to the violence or throwing them in federal prison, where the worst of the worst go. That's right, our government is stealing foreign children from their parents, placing them in compassion-less cells, and limiting press and inspections from government officials whom also find this abhorrent. And when we do get controlled information, it is worse than imagined, and this is after they have time to prepare for the visits.

Our power hungry President first blamed his political opponents for this, and now is using these kids as bargaining chips to build his wall. This is a Trump/Republican policy.

Some government officials cite this as law (it's not) and/or claim Biblical justification, which is both incorrect and also not part of our rule of law. This is a Trump/Republican policy.

Other government officials lie to our faces and deny this is happening. It IS happening, and it is a Trump/Republican policy.

Worst of all, a growing number of our citizens are apathetic or supportive of this...and it is all based on ignorance and racism.

International brothers and sisters...are you aware this is happening here? Are you as surprised as me that we cannot seem to immediately make this stop?

I know we come here for entertainment and release, so I apologize for my downer posts this year. But, I am ashamed of my nation and you are my only international friends. Perhaps sometimes much of the world may experience schadenfreude waiting for Americans to choke on their hubris, but this is different. These are human rights atrocities being committed by a world leader. This is unacceptable.

I'm fully aware of this and am infuriated too! Let's hope the bi-partisan approach that is set to be voted on this week can revoke that current inhumane practice. It's sad but not surprising that DJT and his enablers keep on lying about it being a Democratic issue and even trying to justify it with biblical references. It's a Trump policy (as you correctly said used as a bargaining tool) and Sessions's secret delight to enforce the hardest possible prosecution of illegal immigration.
The current state your country is in does remind me in parts of ours in the darkest of hours. Have you heard about these two flight school teachers (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2018/05/27/a-pilot-kidnapped-a-foreign-student-and-tried-to-deport-him-back-to-china-police-say/) that tried to deport a Chinese student privately? Or yesterday, where ICE officers tried to deport a Green Card holder who had been living in the US for 50 years because of a misdemeanor regarding a domestic violence issue that happened 18 years ago? Something's going really awry at the moment.

Quote from: satur8 on Jun 18, 2018, 14:24

International brothers and sisters...are you aware this is happening here?

Yes, mostly via this twitter account:

https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1007364537681661952

https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1008775853755400192

https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/1008723005575331840

I am aware what's going on, and I'm pretty pissed about that, can't even imagine what you guys over there are going through
Today I read that USA quit UN human rights council just because they criticized drumpf over clusterfuck that is happening on your borders...

I am seriously shocked and in disbelief how little it takes for USA to turn its back on allies over the sea, it only takes one man's vanity and bunch of spineless politicians that are too afraid for their own position to make a stand and do the right thing, if they even care at all

This is not good and it will screw US-EU relations for generations to come

Good to see we're on the verge of such a high character dude getting appointed a lifetime seat in the US Supreme Court. Well done senators! Surely his judgement will never be vindictive or partisan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Good GUY!

So true. So sad.

Nice, now there will be a judge accused of sexual assaults that lies before senate committee sitting on supreme court dealing justice. Talk about new low.

Quote from: sandelic on Oct 06, 2018, 10:24

Nice, now there will be a judge accused of sexual assaults that lies before senate committee sitting on supreme court dealing justice. Talk about new low.

Been a disappointing day... after an exhausting and draining buildup.

Words can't describe it.

Quote from: sandelic on Oct 06, 2018, 10:24

Nice, now there will be a judge accused of sexual assaults that lies before senate committee sitting on supreme court dealing justice. Talk about new low.

It's not that we have a sitting judge that has been accused of sexual assault--that's not the issue.

The issue is that he seems to have lied about knowledge of some of the circumstances under oath, and he also seems unable to divorce himself of emotion in a way that you would expect of a justice sitting on the supreme court. He wears his politics on his sleeve, and there is a potential that he could become an activist judge on the Right, which has dire implications for individual rights for minorities, immigrants, the LGBTQ community, and, of course, women.

That's exactly right, Poots! And the grotesque thing is, all the deficiencies he showed at the hearing were in total contrast to his own standards he championed as essential traits in judges/ justices/ umpires in a speech to law students in 2015. Nothing but hypocritical, calculated words it seems.
I do understand he was under huge pressure and stress, but it was him (and his entourage?) that crafted his opening statements which were well thought out and carefully prepared regarding its content. And that partisan, consipracy driven content should have disqualified him in the first place from being elevated to one of the highest of posts there is. There would have been lots of other conservative judges who could have filled the post just as good but time was running out since the fear of losing power in November made them frantically scrambling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEj6lV124U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWWdup0EfLg

I hate to say it but My own country is just being run by corrupt old men (and possibly a few women)

I'm just praying after the midterms we can get some more democrats to bring balance the capital.
Dont get me wrong, I'm in between being republican and democrat, but the republicans have taken over the house, and everything they done that's gone wrong, they always put the blame on the democrats (even when its not them sometimes).

Just a quick note on the whole Trump Kanye meeting as an 'outsider' (non US citizen) looking in. I felt kind of sick and uncomfortable watching it unfold knowing this is getting shown all around the world. Imagining the younger generation just lapping all this up.

Mental Health is serious if this is the reason to blame for this but then they are both extreme narcissists so its a blurred line. Would they still act this way if 'mental health' wasn't to blame. I'm assuming they wouldn't have some of these mental health issues if they weren't narcissists? I'm no expert of course but this is the danger of being used to 'yes' men/women surrounding you thinking without there are no foreseen consequences as well.

Michael Jackson drove himself into his own illness/death because of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sO5-t3iEYY

it's scary how close to reality this is

I don't see much CNN on this side of the pond. Do they actually report fake news?

https://twitter.com/aljwhite/status/1060224698561318913

You can reasonably accuse CNN of a liberal bias, and of embellishing the facts on a number of serious occasions, they shouldn't be trusted completely blindly - but they're still definitely a major professional news source far from tabloid fiction or insanity. They're legit.

CNN gets ripped by Trump and the far right for being evil fake liberal news all the time, and it's absolutely ridiculous / blown out of proportion.

Apart from over sensationalizing headlines, which all main 3 news outlets (CNN,FOX,and MSNBC) in the States are guilty of... No, CNN is not "fake news". I think all 3 stations are supplying virtually the same "real" news. It's the programing, personalities, and framing of material that makes them different.

You lean left you'll like MSNBC and CNN. You lean right, you'll like FOX.

CNN and MSNBC are obviously going to hammer him with hard questions, so this is his petulant way of dismissing them.

The joke is, reactions like the video you posted, are exactly what all the news and media networks want from him. On one side, it enrages liberals. On the other side, conservatives get a hard on seeing him bully the hard nosed journalists. It's must see TV for each side of the coin.

CNN is certainly not fake news, just follow the facts and you'll see. FOX News on the other hand, with the exepctions of Shep Smith and Chris Wallace, seems completely out of control. I've never seen so much bootlicking towards a political leader/ figure in a democratic country like on Fox. Where CNN may focus too often on the President and his fuck-ups, Fox seems to completely ignore those or spin them and rather praise him to high heavens instead no matter what. Don't get me started on all the opinion shows there. Where Rachel Maddow, for instance, may often seem to over-act a little in her shows but mainly presents facts that are thoroughly investigated and comprehensively explained,Fox's opinion anchors' main purpose seems to be to just rile up their audience with negative, resentful and often misleading "news" against "them". For me it's almost impossible to sit through an entire show like Carlson, Hannity or Ingraham. It causes me phyiscal pain to see them talk incendiary shit all day long without any real repercussions.

But to be completely honest, the whole media landscape in the US is weird and awkward. For two years now I've been following your news outlets and, as a German, I must say it's almost unfathomable how these are presented in the States. Everything is so fucking emotional and over the top, you often get the feeling you're watching actors doing a play on a stage rather than news anchors. It's really bizarre.

That said, I would recommend to lots of news reporters like Jim Acosta to be less personally and emotionally involved (which I know might be hard these days). It just makes you too easy a target to be pointed at as DJT relishes to do all the time. Just ask the tough questions, be persistent, but don't fall for the bait and leave out your personal feelings because it also can make you look like a dick.

Quote from: WhiteNoise on Nov 08, 2018, 05:29

they shouldn't be trusted completely blindly

Nobody should! Do your own research too and go read news across the board and try to track down firsthand sources (one of the main principles of scientific work we get taught in college) and leave social networks alone for that matter - you never know what you're fed, left or right.

The Onion, is without a doubt, a very trusted source.

Quote from: Csar on Nov 08, 2018, 09:42

But to be completely honest, the whole media landscape in the US is weird and awkward. For two years now I've been following your news outlets and, as a German, I must say it's almost unfathomable how these are presented in the States. Everything is so fucking emotional and over the top, you often get the feeling you're watching actors doing a play on a stage rather than news anchors. It's really bizarre.

Dramatizing it is how they get their ratings. If they were completely neutral it would essentially be C-SPAN (another News TV network), which is completely raw and neutralized public access. That's not for Americans! We want tragedy! and comedy!

I applaud you non-Americans for keeping an ear on American Politics. I regret to say, I have zero insight of the political climate from your respective countries. It's hard enough for me to barely have a grasp on my own.

Quote from: Bosco on Nov 08, 2018, 19:34

The Onion, is without a doubt, a very trusted source.

Ahem, America's Finest News Source. 

Quote from: Bosco on Nov 08, 2018, 19:34

The Onion, is without a doubt, a very trusted source.

It's hard to say whether they have an incredibly easy or hard time under Trump. Hard, because you barely can exaggerate the content at hand to make satirical, and easy because they merely need to recite what's happening.

The irony of calling trusted news sources 'fake news' while passing around doctored video as fact (and justification for barring a member of our free press from the White House) would be amusing if it weren't so Orwellian.

I've kept quiet in this thread (otherwise my fingers would fall off from ranting and raving) but I value our free press, it is crucial to the fabric of my country no matter how impassioned or even biased it can be. But this shit scares me.

https://wokesloth.com/white-house-caught-using-doctored-video-acosta-cnn/jake/

Only in 2018 America can the act of counting every vote be denounced as 'voter fraud' by the incumbent conservative party and their propoganda based media outlets.

Freedom to vote (and have it be counted) is literally what is supposed to define our nation. Yet, there are those in power that would take it away, and others with no power that will freely give it or stay silent as their brothers and sisters lose it.

Every day the bar falls lower.

Quote from: whirlygirl on Nov 10, 2018, 00:11

The irony of calling trusted news sources 'fake news' while passing around doctored video as fact (and justification for barring a member of our free press from the White House) would be amusing if it weren't so Orwellian.

I've kept quiet in this thread (otherwise my fingers would fall off from ranting and raving) but I value our free press, it is crucial to the fabric of my country no matter how impassioned or even biased it can be. But this shit scares me.

https://wokesloth.com/white-house-caught-using-doctored-video-acosta-cnn/jake/

I saw that Rafael Shiminov tweet (the last embedded one in the article) on the day he tweeted it and I had to pick my jaw up off the floor.
1) What is Sarah Sanders doing retweeting anything from infowars/Paul Joseph Watson? That's insane!
2) If North Korea or Russian officials had tweeted out this doctored footage, those of us in the west would be laughing at their fake propaganda.

I'm not American but I agree Whirly, this shit scares me too. "The West" is meant to be about freedom of speech. With great power (& freedom) comes great responsibility. The current White House regime does the supposedly "free world" nothing but harm by abusing and debasing that responsibility.
If anyone on Obama's staff had done this, surely there would have been calls for a formal apology and perhaps a resignation from the staff member. This behavour must not be accepted. But Trump defends her saying the footage hasn't actually been doctored.
She MUST be sacked. Otherwise a dangerous precedent is set not just in America but for everywhere that believes in democracy and freedom of speech, and truth. I have no ability to to influence American politics. But American politics does influence the world.
This has to stop. Now.

I almost got hacked just now. I went onto my xbox to download the recent BO4 update and found out someone else is currently on my account. I went onto my email and saw that 10 other sites (thankfully not here nor facebook) reported multiple login attempts.
I got onto my xbox and changed my info but now I feel stupid because someone elses Phone number was on my account, I should've taken a screenshot and reported it to the police but I deleted it from my info without any thought.

I wanna give you all a heads up If I post anything out of the ordinary that doesnt seem me, everything I said above may be linked.

I wonder if we've been too keen to have a pop at Trump here in the past, and forgotten to point out what a meddling arse Putin is...

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1098936801690116096

https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1097075307574714368
[EDIT: Damn this tweet from Carole didn't embed because: emojis, but she's really interesting re Trump/Putin/Brexit. Worth a follow if you're on twitter]

Aaron Banks funded UKIP, Nigel Farage's pro-Brexit party leading up to the 2016 referendum. Where does Banks get his dough from? Rumour has it that it's Putin. STRONG rumour.
So Putin seems to be linked to Trump, Brexit and right wing populists in Italy (with a view to weakening the EU. Again)
But alas it didn't take us long to get back to America, because: Mueller/Trump. Sorry about that.

And, on a slightly different tack, here's Trump's favourite news network not enjoying truth at the end of this interview as much as at the beginning. Everyone seen this? It's worth it.

https://twitter.com/rcbregman/status/1098283273120350211

Can we just throw Putin, Trump, Fox News, North Korea's Kim, and worldwide populist neo-nazis into a big blender and then pour the resultant mulch down into hell via a volcano or something?

NSFW Warning, Strong Language

Spoiler

My fucking EBay Account was hacked 3 days ago, and I got suspended for suspicious listings when I haven't been on Ebay in 2 weeks, Imma have to call the company tomorrow morning and get it unsuspended. Hopefully they will reveal the address of the fucker who hacked my account because I've been saving for an item all year.

all Im thankful for is that I didn't save any personal data on that account, no bank details or nothing. but I swear to god if I find the bastard who got my account, all those savings will have to go towards bail.

And this just happened on the eve of No Geography being released.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=stTMt1tLT4g&fbclid=IwAR2fI77Yzc9OFsx1uNJFS0seV03Sm4nVeP5xqFlb_xMvf32psj6y7V4K1ZY

Wikileaks posted the video 10 min ago.

Quote from: MIKL on Apr 11, 2019, 11:36

And this just happened

Terrible situations are happening in Latin America (especially in Venezuela, Brazil and Argentina). Julian Assange was betrayed and handed over by Lenín Moreno, the president of Ecuador, infringing the commitment not to extradite Assange to the USA. The life of who disclosed ten millions documents proving the international conspiracy and espionage of the yankee imperialism is at risk.

Quote from: SouthernBrother on Apr 12, 2019, 03:19

Terrible situations are happening in Latin America (especially in Venezuela, Brazil and Argentina). Julian Assange was betrayed and handed over by Lenín Moreno, the president of Ecuador, infringing the commitment not to extradite Assange to the USA. The life of who disclosed ten millions documents proving the international conspiracy and espionage of the yankee imperialism is at risk.

it will be interesting to see how this plays out in court as it will display to the world how 'free' we really are/n't but I guess if you had a conscious most people know we aren't. His lawyer has been interviewed in Australia on TV a couple of times now and she presents herself well even with with the bullying tactics of a TV Breakfast Show Host. (As you'd expect if Julian had a lawyer). She even says whether he should be charged at all for simply telling the truth of what actually happened and on top of the some reputable media institutions have been using this information and spreading it further.

Quote from: MIKL on Apr 12, 2019, 09:02

it will be interesting to see how this plays out in court

We can't place false expectations in a Justice that wants to torture and impose capital punishment to a person (whoever that be). In this global political and economical regime we aren't allowed to be free at all. Thanks for sharing the information yesterday morning.

Notre-Dame cathederal,Paris oh no. My condolences Paris, and indeed the world. This is such a world famous landmark.

I can't believe..

Seeing Notre Dame in flames makes me sad. Such a beautiful church.

Quote from: ThePumisher on Apr 15, 2019, 18:09

Seeing Notre Dame in flames makes me sad. Such a beautiful church.

I'm heartbroken. I saw a big white smoke from my window wondering what it was, and then I saw this  :'(
It's one of my favourite monuments in Paris, such an imposing and beautiful building. It's hard to believe what is happening.
I just hope the damage will be mostly to the top of the structure.

Let's hope that nobody got hurt or will get hurt.
Here's a Twitter thread from a firefighter about the challenges the firefighters in Paris now face:
https://twitter.com/GreggFavre/status/1117847726786371585?s=09

This might only be a small consolation, but remember that old and big buildings like the Notre Dame have been built and rebuilt many times during their lifetime. I'm sure this won't be the end of this landmark.

Hunchback of Notre Dame got a hold of MAH and is going through a destructive phase.


Seriously though, sad to see an historic and iconic structure in that state

WTF, just saw it on CNN. Hundreds of years of art and architecture going up in flames. Sad news.

Easily one the most beautiful structures in Europe.
Really heart breaking to see.

What a shitty thing to wake up to.
From what I've gathered, main structure is ok, thank whomever.
I have no doubt it will be rebuilt to its former glory.

All of the main structure (in stone) held. Most of the inside seems relatively unaffected, but they're saying it will take decades to build back

Prayers for Paris,I know they announced it will be rebuilt but it wont be the same.

Quote from: Conn6orsuper117 on Apr 16, 2019, 09:38

Prayers for Paris,I know they announced it will be rebuilt but it wont be the same.

Well, yes, it's not the same building it was in 13th century even before this fire, and it will not be exactly the same after they rebuild it.
But it will always be a monument to human achievement.

https://register.ubisoft.com/acu-notredame-giveaway/en-GB

Quote from: ThePumisher on Apr 17, 2019, 17:39

https://register.ubisoft.com/acu-notredame-giveaway/en-GB

Thanks a bunch, Pum!

Major United State cities going to shambles right now.

I wish all the protesters safety. Some of the videos I've seen have been absolutely terrible, and all this happening while a Pandemic going on.

George Floyd, your death was not justified, and I'm in full support of the black community that will not condone this shit anymore.

That's about all I can say as a suburban white guy.

Quote from: Bosco on May 31, 2020, 20:18

Major United State cities going to shambles right now.

I wish all the protesters safety. Some of the videos I've seen have been absolutely terrible, and all this happening while a Pandemic going on.

George Floyd, your death was not justified, and I'm in full support of the black community that will not condone this shit anymore.

That's about all I can say as a suburban white guy.

As a Mexican, I'm just tired of seeing some of the police being dicks with their stupid apprehend tactics, false arrests, and wrongful detainment. This has been going on for years And never lets up, despite the fact that so many other George Floyds were swept under the rug and was hidden to cover up for the police. But when it gets televised and they get caught red handed, nothing is done to punish them. Police unions will look after themselves and look the other way when a black man is murdered. Not all police are bad, and I say this because I have family in law enforcement,and they also have opinions too, and they agree that George Floyds death was wrong and terrible, and want to be on the same side of the peaceful protesters, but they get ignored and despised because they're already put in the category of 'if a cop kills an innocent person, than ALL cops are bad!" I thing the internet already shows some videos with protesters and cops showing solidarity.

..and then there's some video of cops being straight-up assholes,!

I was just talking to my old man and he said, "have we learned anything from the '65 riots, the '92 riots (Rodney King), and now 2020?"

Fucking looters! They're just taking steps back and sending the worse message.

Be safe out their Bosco and the rest of you forumites. Hold Tight Los Angeles!

As an equally suburban white guy I don't have a lot I can say myself either - but I can go to a protest and be counted in the numbers and help discriminated voices ring louder. Greater Lafayette, Indiana is not particularly big; it's often said this place has all the difficulties of a large city and all the shortcomings of a small town, and it's very true - so when I say the march last night was massive and unbelievably encouraging, I mean it. Something like 6-7 blocks of streets covered at once. Largely incredibly peaceful. Virtually everyone wore masks. Mayors came out in solidarity and gave speeches. Representation from everyone, all races and walks of life, LGBT and libertarian gun nuts and pastors and priests and bleeding hearts waving peace flags united.

The most powerful two moments came when we reached the police department training center - decked with half a dozen police officers in full tactical gear on the roof. We surrounded the place, taking a knee. And every officer took their knees in return.

(https://i.imgur.com/8f4eHdq.jpg)

Some time after, some of the crowd near the building started banging on the doors of the building. Tensions rose as the officers stood and moved to the door ordering them to stop. Before anything could break out, a single man loudly shouted "let's keep moving, let's keep marching" and on his own rallied the entire crowd to take the march back downtown, diffusing the situation effortlessly.

It'd be easy to focus on the windows broken late in the night, the vandalized courthouse, the tear gas shot and state police who moved in much later in the night. But that wasn't the crowd I saw. There's assholes taking advantage of this situation and they're not AT ALL representative of the much larger crowds marching loudly and peacefully. People demand change and they understand the world doesn't have to burn to make it happen; no matter how much it's completely justified (property can be replaced, human lives cannot, and this shit has gone on for too long).

I know things are shaken up much more dangerously elsewhere - I hope you all are safe, but that you're also doing whatever tiny bit you can to help these protests and this message. Staying silent right now is taking the side that you're tolerant of systemic racism, police militarization, and brutality, that you're okay with police breaking the car windows of two college students and tazing them simply for driving in the area (https://twitter.com/KCJ_Swish/status/1266913464234237954), shooting non-protesting civilians standing on their own front porch after gleefully shouting "light em up" (https://twitter.com/AWKWORDrap/status/1266939808984772610), directly macing a 9 year old girl (https://twitter.com/julesstorres/status/1266904233393217543), and tearing off masks of non-violent protests just to mace them (https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gtsji2/black_man_with_his_hands_in_the_air_get_his_mask/) - and that you're okay with the thousands upon thousands of counts of murder and violence and abuse, both unjustly fueled by racism and unchecked power, that led to these protests happening in the first place. This just isn't a time for sitting on a fence.

Killer Mike of Run the Jewels puts it better than I've heard anywhere else -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rapfJYfPU38

I'm proud of you guys. It's always warming knowing we have quality and understanding people on this forum.

I second that, Bosco! I am proud of you guys as well and am once more reassured to have found a wonderful place of like-minded people who share a similar humanistic and open mindset.
The whole situation across the pond is dismaying and unfathomable. The supposed leaders at the top appear to be unable and/or unwilling to heal and unite which makes everything even grimmer.

I've just watched Trevor Noah's analysis about all that. What he has to say about society is really powerful in my opinion. Over the last couple of years, I have gained huge respect for the guy as he seems to be one of a rarer kind of prominent comedians out there who also have deeper things to share than just making a quick joke.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4amCfVbA_c

Please stay safe if you participate in those protests and look out for each other and keep things civil.

As a white person living in a wealthy central european country, it took me embarrassingly long to figure out that is is simply not enough just to be not racist, but if there's ever going to be any change for the better, we have to be actively antiracist and antifascist. Especially everybody who is privileged enough to never be affected by systemic and/or direct racism. The very least we can do is listen to all those voices who raise awareness about these issues.
If the protests seem angry and frustrated, it's most likely because the calm voices were usually ignored.

These five minutes are some of the best statements I've heard about what's going on in the US right now: https://twitter.com/WailQ/status/1266655401963065344


Also, this is a Chembros fan forum, so I'm glad to see they've put out a clear statement:
https://twitter.com/ChemBros/status/1267533020212408321

Quote from: Csar on Jun 01, 2020, 20:28

The supposed leaders at the top appear to be unable and/or unwilling to heal and unite which makes everything even grimmer.

Haha "unwilling", Trump is a white supremacist who actively wants the protests to escalate further, so that he can stage himself as the strong man who stomps the violence down. And of course he is protected by his party, because they're either on his side or stand by silently because it's the convenient way to keep their power and wealth.

Quote from: Stefan on Jun 02, 2020, 10:38

Haha "unwilling", Trump is a white supremacist who actively wants the protests to escalate further, so that he can stage himself as the strong man who stomps the violence down. And of course he is protected by his party, because they're either on his side or stand by silently because it's the convenient way to keep their power and wealth.

Yeah, well, I didn't want it to be about him in my post so I left it at that.

I agree with almost all you've said. But to be honest, I don't even know whether he is a true white supremacist or not. What I do know is that he is an opportunist and an egotist who believes he's the hub of the world. It's all about him and how he can take advantage of everything. These types of persons are even worse as they don't have any real conviction at all and change their tune to whatever they think might benefit them. At the moment, he's fully subscribed to a far right base which he's pandering to and which he believes he needs to win come November.

And he has no sense of genuine empathy at all. Not one shred.

Something non-Americans may not take into consideration is how much ignorance, hate, and stupidity there is over here. I mean, we know you KNOW, but despite current events there is still 30%-40% of the populace that is okay with all of this...or that are actually in support of it. Family. Neighbors. Co-Workers. It's bad enough that we have idiots getting into fights with retail workers because they have to wear masks, but now there is also a constant tension with people you know for stupids shit they say or feel about protests, riots, and militarized police. I'm somewhat lucky as my family is small and believe love is love, people are people: I removed myself from the larger racist family years ago. But I have a good friend that is suffering because it has just come to light exactly how racist their family is, and they might be in the middle of a split like I did. It's an emotional drain, especially now. But, it must be done. It's just another element in everyone's difficult days right now.

Be silent and complicit or alienate people around you. Those are the only true choices. Unfortunately, the 'type' that defaults to "cops are justified/black deserves this/Trump is a good leader" certainly aren't willing to listen, and be it family, neighbors, or co-workers, it makes for further division, isolation, and negativity. (And no, news events like this are not necessarily appropriate political conversations at work, but trust me, it is easy to tell who is an ally and who is not).  Also, we seem to have a lot of self-identified "middle ground" people here that believe their black friends are okay, but it's the OTHER black people they don't know that are the problem. It's that type of subtle racism they simply won't acknowledge that is so frustrating and keeping us from making progress. It is acceptance of the systematic oppression despite what the world can see. That, and their inability to listen, grow, or care.

And if this is the start of an uncomfortable revolution, so be it. Most Americans think racism was defeated in the Civil Rights movement 50 years ago, and before that they believed simply ending slavery was the end of the conversation. And many, many people see no issues with militarized police (via taxation) and don't care that our medical workers are sorely under-supplied with PPE due to capitalistic policies, and they certainly won't acknowledge the relationship. And many still refuse to acknowledge the economic barriers and disadvantages forced on POC for hunhreds of years. Is any of this a surprise? No? Americans ended the career of a star athlete because he dared to speak up about race based police brutality. Americans looked away from the brown kids separated from their asylum seeking families and put in cages. Americans watched 8 years of racism directed towards the first black President, be it from political sabotage to pundit attacks to hateful memes. Americans have allowed this and I'm glad the world is watching: many of us pretend to be better than those "evil" oppressive countries, but the real difference is that we have the patriotic marketing and reputation behind us.

But for me personally on the day to day I am fortunate. I am employed, my family is healthy, and we are privileged to not be in direct immediate danger. I am using my voice and using it loudly to educate when I can, but the people who need to hear it are largely not receptive (or aggressively fighting against it).

I am grateful for this peaceful, intelligent international community of brothers and sisters, and I am proud of the Chemical Brothers for making a clear statement when they didn't have to.

You hate to hear stories of separation from families because of political or social issues. I'm sorry that you had to result to that Satur8, and that your friend is going through a similar issue.

My immediate family is a solid bunch in terms of like-mindedness. 5 different flavors of people that certainly can clash on petty indifferences, but a solid unit when it comes to the voting booth and social commentary.

My extended family on the other hand, is a mixed bag. A very dependable and loving bunch, yet some stuck on the wrong political side for reasons that I can't explain without indulging in stereotyping, myself.

I think the most frustrating part with everything that is unfolding (from pandemic to civil rights/equality/racism), is the idea of progression in this country has been challenged, disrupted, and ignored in so many ways. And to be further critical with this, fundamental change was there for the taking earlier this year with Bernie and Warren leading the way. Somehow we got wrapped up in the fact of chasing Obama's shadow rather than seek fast tracked policy reform that the public is so desperately clamoring for.

I know I told Satur8 it's time to move on when he was upset after Bernie's defeat, but now, I'm pissed.

Joe, you better make this count.

Watching Tucker Carlson's spin the past few nights has been quite the trip. I don't advise it, but he did bring a piece of hypocrisy forwards that concerns me about the protests.

While protests continue, at what point are we going to let the voice of public health crisis ring the loudest? That's not in his exact words (Tucker more-so explains it as liberal fueled strategy to stymie the White House), but it's mostly the question I've been asking myself since the protesting has prolonged.

Tucker has no solid ground though, because this is the same news network that has pumped the narrative of denouncing the severity of Coronavirus, and again, a liberal controlled conspiracy.

Long story short. Yeah, I support the protests, I want equality, justice, and reform. But I'm really concerned about the Coronavirus. Does that make me racist?

Ooof, Tucker Carlson, aye?!? You're a trooper, Bosco! Well, at the moment, emotions and anger are fresh and the peoples' urge to vent their grievances that have bottled up over all these decades is an immediate reaction to all of this. Another driver in my opinion is that there's an economic crisis looming, many lost their jobs. In this this emotion-laden situation, logic and reason with respect to the pandemic are set aside to a degree - although, I saw lots of people wearing masks fortunately. I guess the current issue seems more palpable right now than an invisible virus. And I believe folks out there see a reasonable opportunity to make real change which gives them courage and hope. This, too, propels the momentum.

That is something Tucker Carlson - an entitled, rich, feeding-of-hatred-and-division opinion-host - can't possibly understand. None of these hate-show hosts can because that's not their business model. Their business is to find cracks in society and exploid them for monetary gain and personal wealth.

Tried to not say something on this topic here because it's easy to say something from 4000 miles away (and with the worst racist background you can imagine that our country went through 80 years ago), but do you really think this all will change if a democrat will sit in that chair in oval office? I don't think it will change anything because racism is mostly something thats totally deeper. A lot of people are racists and don't even know it - doing something here, saying something there and not even realise it offends others. They grew up with this and think it's normal. Don't get me wrong, i'm not the hugest fan of the republican party and me thinks that Trump is not even the worst that could happen to the States, but in fact he is the worst that could happened to this whole planet (he and that brazillian guy). Thing is that somehow i believe he will get another four years, and that the riots will focus this even more. Yes, you have to stand up and raise your voice, otherwise nothing will change, but riots and looting are not the best way of changing anything.

Quote from: Csar on Jun 06, 2020, 06:58

Another driver in my opinion is that there's an economic crisis looming, many lost their jobs. In this this emotion-laden situation, logic and reason with respect to the pandemic are set aside to a degree - although, I saw lots of people wearing masks fortunately. I guess the current issue seems more palpable right now than an invisible virus. And I believe folks out there see a reasonable opportunity to make real change which gives them courage and hope. This, too, propels the momentum.

Economic crisis you say? America's economy is seemingly depression proof if you track the market. Its supports are made of the most impressive house of cards, just waiting for the next party to open the proverbial barn door, only to be epically knocked down with the slightest of breeze.

Quote from: ThePumisher on Jun 06, 2020, 09:07

Tried to not say something on this topic here because it's easy to say something from 4000 miles away (and with the worst racist background you can imagine that our country went through 80 years ago), but do you really think this all will change if a democrat will sit in that chair in oval office? I don't think it will change anything because racism is mostly something thats totally deeper. A lot of people are racists and don't even know it - doing something here, saying something there and not even realise it offends others. They grew up with this and think it's normal. Don't get me wrong, i'm not the hugest fan of the republican party and me thinks that Trump is not even the worst that could happen to the States, but in fact he is the worst that could happened to this whole planet (he and that brazillian guy). Thing is that somehow i believe he will get another four years, and that the riots will focus this even more. Yes, you have to stand up and raise your voice, otherwise nothing will change, but riots and looting are not the best way of changing anything.

You're not wrong. I was still in belief Donald was still a pretty solid favorite for re-election before this George Floyd incident got extrapolated. But this could be a nail in the coffin for him on how badly he has responded to this situation.

I agree, no matter how hard you try, people will continue to be racist. However, it's my belief majority of people will gravitate to sympathy and empathy in trying times like this (even if it's temporarily). You can only put the public on tilt for so long until they want some sanity. Donald is toast.

Quote from: Bosco on Jun 06, 2020, 20:00

but do you really think this all will change if a democrat will sit in that chair in oval office?

No, I don't. If Bernie would have been the nominee AND we had sweeping chair swaps in Congress...and that includes some Democrats getting primaried out...then yes, I think we would have seen a change. Actually, that very act would have been the start of the change. As it is, Biden is weak and has many similarities to Trump in policy and person, but people will ignore it all becasue he was statesman Obama's right hand man. Yes, what we are seeing today is change, but politically I am not hopeful for satisfying and immediate reform.

Quote from: Bosco on Jun 06, 2020, 20:00

You're not wrong. I was still in belief Donald was still a pretty solid favorite for re-election before this George Floyd incident got extrapolated. But this could be a nail in the coffin for him on how badly he has responded to this situation.

These are pretty much my thoughts as well. Imagine if that cop was just held accountable as he should have been. The alternate timeline has a Trump favored to win DESPITE his botched pandemic response. That's how bad Biden is.

Sadly, it is well within the realm of possibility that this idiot declares Marshall Law or starts a civil war just to stay in power. What's worse, his followers were armed to the teeth and willing to fight the tyranny of "wearing masks", but now they are silent or cheering while legitimate tyranny is attacking the peaceful protesters they perceive as 'enemies'.

Historically speaking, this moment in time will not be forgotten. It's not often that you KNOW you're living that.

The discussion about race has become impossible to engage in.

Here's a quick test to determine if you're racist, according to popular opinion.

Are you critical of any aspect of the Black Lives Matter movement?

Are you white and trying to give your opinion about how we should manage our police?

Are you discussing how many people our police forces kill each year without talking about their race?

If you are talking about violence against the black community, are you trying to include considerations of violence within that community?

If someone exhibits any questionable behavior outside of their workplace that might be deemed racist, do you believe that the person doesn't immediately deserve to be fired?

Do you value human lives without first considering what race they are?

Do you have an opinion about how people should protest?

Have you not adequately considered what race you are before contributing to a discussion about how to handle ourselves as a nation?

If you answered yes to any of those questions, you're racist.

There's no discussion in the United States about race. There are only people shouting at the top of their lungs with fingers in their ears.

And I'm sitting here listening, and I'm certainly sympathetic. And I'm trying to be understanding. And I'm trying to be patient.

My hope is that the explanation for the current political climate is that our economy is in shambles and the behavior of police has gotten so out of hand and abhorrent that people simply demand change regardless of their tone and content, and they have a reasonable basis to do so.

But ultimately my hope is that people start to see the changes that we have begun to make, such as in Colorado (https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicksibilla/2020/06/21/colorado-passes-landmark-law-against-qualified-immunity-creates-new-way-to-protect-civil-rights/), in Kentucky (https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/breonna-law-banning-no-knock-police-raids-in-kentucky-passes/), in our Courts (https://www.law.com/newyorklawjournal/2020/06/01/2nd-circuit-rejects-qualified-immunity-in-lawsuit-over-police-shooting-of-mentally-ill-man/?slreturn=20200525163600) across the country (https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/4th-circuit-holds-police-are-not-20874/), and see that there is even hope in the federal government (https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/504065-gop-senator-introducing-bill-to-scale-back-qualified-immunity-for-police).

My hope is that people will start to take faith in the justice system, and see that it has already started (https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/us/george-floyd-officers-charges/index.html) to address instances (https://people.com/crime/brett-hankison-fired-for-misusing-deadly-force-in-breonna-taylor-shooting/) of extreme injustice.

But even my hope is tempered. And I'm going to be watching, hoping history doesn't repeat itself (https://www.al.com/news/birmingham/2019/09/johnson-a-charged-police-officer-a-change-of-venue-to-simi-valley-al.html). And I have no doubt the nation will as well.

Because if the law fails us, even I start to think about picking up a motherfucking molotov.

So let's hope that we see four police officers who were working their beat in Minneapolis sentenced for the crime of murder, at least. That's a good start.

Madpooter - I have to say, most of my conversations about race have gone differently for me than what you have posted. I understand that geography and circles make a difference, but I took your commentary as a snapshot of the national picture. And I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, only that I have had a different experience. Fortunately, I have started my journey of understanding well before this became a nightly news conversation, but I have been called an ally, not a racist.

In my experience, most of the resistance against discussion has come from white people, and most of the people of color I've spoken with are receptive to discuss. At the same time, they don't believe it is their responsibility to educate, and I think that is fair, too. They think if we don't know we need to educate ourselves, and yes, they do feel we should already know. And I agree with them. Van Jones noted how interesting it is for the black community to suddenly have 20 million white allies looking for leadership, so this is new to everybody. I agree with them in the sense that we need to spend less time talking and more time listening. But when you say people should "start to take faith in the justice system, and see that it has already started to address instances of extreme injustice", if you don't understand why people don't have this faith or appreciation for baby steps, you may have a little more listening to do. And regarding being critical of the Black Lives Movement, I may not personally be a fan of riots and looting, but at the same time, I am not going to tell oppressed people how to effectively be heard after 400 years of oppressive racism, abused authority, and capitalism stacked against targeted communities. And realistically, how many of these aggressions were instigated by police or white supremacists? What does one with no power do when not given the opportunity to assemble and peacefully protest as guaranteed in the constitution? Do I realize not all POC will see me as an ally and some have contempt for me just for the color of MY skin? I do. And I also understand why. This is all my counterpoint as someone who has not had a particularly good or successful life, but still understands the fundamentals of my straight white male privilege. None of this is directed at you specifically, although your faith in the system is definitely not shared by many.

And as the news and constant coverage slows down on these issues, I am hoping the momentum does not. We'll find out the next time a cop murders someone on camera,again. Will they keep their job and not face the justice system, or has the precedent become the norm? It remains to be seen, but history is not on the side of the black community.

Meanwhile, America is a mess for other reasons even if BLM is getting less coverage at the moment. COVID is still spreading and citizens don't realize the world is building a wall around us. Assholes won't wear masks as directed and become violent, either threatening physical force or chemical warfare with their spit. People think everything should be status quo, and some still don't even believe this is a threat. Trump and his ilk are as buffoonishly dangerous as ever, and his followers show no sign of seeing the problem. Biden is the presumptive answer, and I can't imagine a worse scenario to combat this because little will change other than the names and the overt brazenness of bolstering the rich. I am raising a tween that starts middle school and he is either going to miss the important experience or be forced to attend with children of families that don't take this seriously in a school that can't possibly enforce the precautions necessary. And socially he is alone and there is very little I can do but talk to him daily. And on top of everything, I'm nearing 50 and am frustrated with my job, but with security, healthcare, and the lack of desire to start over anywhere at my age in this situation, I feel literally trapped. And I still have it better than many, so I somewhat feel selfish, too. I would say I am falling into a deep depression, but I have been there in the past and I am managing to keep my sanity out of pure strength for my family. But I cannot remember the last time I was happy or hopeful. I didn't intend to make the tail end of this about me, but it was free flow typing and I suppose all of this falls under difficult subjects and how I am coping.

satur8 - with all due respect, you weren't reading my opinions, you were reading my observations. And I hope you do not dismiss my observations.

I'm literally recounting and reciting discussions and talking points from news media, individual conversations, and posts I've seen on social media. No one proposes any solutions, and no one discusses the issue of race in terms that stray from the narrative that white people are racists, Republicans are racists, and white people and Republicans are the source of racism and oppression in the United States.

So while you may have different observations, I don't know why you're suggesting that my observations are somehow "wrong". I'm not giving you my opinion about racist discussions, I'm simply a fly on the wall.

If you would like to expand on your observations of white people shying away from conversations about racism, by all means.

Here's my opinion, though: The conversations about race are becoming more and more racist, and people are confusing racist discussions with progress.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jul 24, 2020, 01:34

Here's my opinion, though: The conversations about race are becoming more and more racist, and people are confusing racist discussions with progress.

I agree with this opinion, but I don't.

I agree that people are confusing racist discussions with the mind of making a social utopia rather than racial injustice. We will not ever, even in our lifetime, lose bias over identity. That won't happen until all humans are one race, one gender, have the same name, equal size, living the same exact lives, day in and day out. If there's one thing I can agree with conservatives, this would be it.

Why I don't agree with your opinion... The constant barrage of discussions about racism is necessary for fixing racial injustice. So is fighting racism with racism (more like shaming) aimed at white people appropriate? I'm not sure there is another way. I know it's not comfortable, it might not always be focused, but its relentlessness will be the only way we're going to come close to fixing it. I consider that progress, no matter how painfully redundant it becomes.


Also, Satur8. We're all there in feeling a bit helpless (or at least I know I am). Rarely am I an optimist, but I think your kid is for the better experiencing this through his influential years. It might not resonate now for him, but his generation who equally were disrupted, will show better response when met with a global crisis.

Keep being the best Dad you can be.

Quote from: Bosco on Jul 24, 2020, 20:38

We will not ever, even in our lifetime, lose bias over identity. That won't happen until all humans are one race, one gender, have the same name, equal size, living the same exact lives, day in and day out.

There's a scene in the underrated film Bullworth (1998) where Warren Beatty's off-the-rails Senator says everybody needs to shag each other until there are no more races, just one light brown race that looks the same everywhere.
Admittedly it's 22 years since I've seen it, but I suspect the film makes points that are true today and will be in the future too. (Hot Halle Berry is also in it, so y'know check it out.)
Speaking of fighting racism with racism, Grime artist Wiley (best known for Wearing My Rolex) went on a twitter tirade last night against Jews. Just google: Wiley anti semitism or check his WileyCEO twitter account (still there).
Is he entitled to be bitter about being ripped off by white record company suits? Probably. Is it appropriate for him to target Jews? Maybe not (I'm reeeally not a Hitler fan, just to be clear). But if he had said white people instead of jews would that have been ok? Funnily enough, I think it might have been. But I'm genuinely not sure. Is it ok to conflate white people and jewish people? I have no idea.
I remember when Adam Smith was doing interviews for Trespass Against Us he said his next project was a documentary on Wiley and that he was going to be following him to/around Glastonbury.
I dont think we heard any more about that. I wonder if we ever will.

To all the US based forumites, good luck today this month.

It's kind of crippling to be living here without being to have a say in the outcome of the election, especially in a city that is resoundingly against the current administration where it feels like nothing more can be done. My wife and I have basically stopped talking to a lot of family on the other side of this thing - at this stage, it honestly feels futile and an unnecessary spenditure of much needed mental energy to try and engage with them in a meaningful way. We're both incredibly anxious about the results. I'm scared for my city, for the country... We had another spot on the news last night and they gave out our business' address - it worried me. I thought about the potential Trump supporters, living in this "anarchist" city, seeing a business support the voting process and getting angry and wanting a place to express their anger. There are buildings near us that have all but boarded up in preparation for what the state is already calling an emergency.

And on the other side, there is hope with some of the early numbers. And the turnout. Wow. We're predicting to have more than 90% of registered voters turn in their ballots here in Portland. That's wild. I don't think I've ever heard of numbers about 60 in the UK elections. So that's fucking great. I'm super proud of my city. My friends who dropped off their ballots early - followed up to see it was received. And I'm hopeful that enough likeminded people across the country will also get out there and use their voice.

So. As we spend the day giving out little finger puppets to people, and avoiding the news as best we can, I wanted to send love & hope & support to anyone else feeling the weight of the upcoming results. Godspeed.

I do so much hope that this fucking fascist is voted out of office and that we don't have to pay attention to his antics anymore. I hope that the result of a Biden win is clear enough that there won't even be the question of it being challenged in the courts. I hope that everybody can vote without trouble and stays safe.

Quote from: Enjoyed on Nov 03, 2020, 18:36

... seeing a business support the voting process and getting angry and wanting a place to express their anger. There are buildings near us that have all but boarded up in preparation for what the state is already calling an emergency.

Would anyone of you have thought 3 years ago that in 2020 people would feel the need to barricade up their shops and stuff just because of a presidential election? How far have we come? This is all insane. Hopefully this nightmare ends tonight. It needs to. Hope and love to all of you!

I don't have any hope for this nightmare ending tonight, but if Trump and the party that enabled him loose power in the White House and the Senate, this might be the start of a long and difficult process to change democracy in the US for the better.

I live in a nation half full with ignorant, hateful fuckers.

It's unbelievable, and yet, I'm not surprised.

Trump crying "fraud" before all the votes have been counted. If he wins, will he continue to do so? 🤔

Meanwhile 48% of Latinos in Florida voted for this guy, the racist guy. Because they fear Biden will inflict hard socialism on them. 🤔🤔

Not sure which is worse: that my countrymen are so conditioned to fear democratic socialism, or that they believe Biden will implement socialist policies at all.

Meanwhile...the socialist policies and practices already in place in this country have been keeping us afloat as people counite getting sick and becoming increasingly underemployed from the pandemic we are not taking seriously.

Quote from: satur8 on Nov 04, 2020, 15:39

Not sure which is worse: that my countrymen are so conditioned to fear democratic socialism, or that they believe Biden will implement socialist policies at all.

Meanwhile...the socialist policies and practices already in place in this country have been keeping us afloat as people counite getting sick and becoming increasingly underemployed from the pandemic we are not taking seriously.

Ask one of them how car insurance works. Or any insurance for that matter.


The world's gone crazy. I can smell the rise of authoritarianism and it fucking stinks.

Quote from: Csar on Nov 04, 2020, 18:50

The world's gone crazy. I can smell the rise of authoritarianism and it fucking stinks.

I...I think I can smell Biden victory. Trump demanding a re-count in Wisconsin where he has lost by 20k and filing a suit for vote counting to be *stopped* in Michigan, smells/sounds like desperation.

A Biden/Democrat victory would be good news for those of us concerned about the Good Friday Accord. Really good news.

When I woke up this morning and checked the news, I was so pissed at how close it turned out. Then I stopped checking for today altogether and probably will continue doing so for a while. I am so so mad that so many people fall for one of the greatest liars in decades. Not even 230k dead people could convince them otherwise. It's terrifying.

Probably I could have discussed here the presidential elections in Russia 2.5 years ago, but who am I.. And who cares.. Yep..

Yep. Our local elections were also won by incumbents and candidates running on similar 'change is scary!' campaigns. I went to bed last night after avoiding all news I could, trying to sleep through terrible nightmares of the future of this country, woke up crying and feeling truly without hope.

I can't even get mad at those idiots in their cowardly states. I know no-one in that part of the country. The people I know that voted for Trump did so in California and can go fuck themselves, but their stupidity didn't cost us anything. Who can I even direct my anger at? Who could I have convinced that they're vote was going to end up working against them?

And the write ins... The percentages don't add to 100 in most states - which means people took it upon themselves to take the idiotic stance of no-choice-is-better-than-a-bad-choice. These literal idiots don't realise that any vote not for Biden is a vote for Trump. I have no more words. Hopelessness is at that remains at the moment.

Quote from: Explud on Nov 04, 2020, 22:36

Probably I could have discussed here the presidential elections in Russia 2.5 years ago, but who am I.. And who cares.. Yep..

I'm sorry it feels like that Explud. This is of course by no means limited to the states. There feels like fewer and fewer safe places to be in the world. People just don't want to care about things outside their immediate bubble. And ultimately it's going to all come crashing down.

Quote from: Enjoyed on Nov 04, 2020, 22:41

I'm sorry it feels like that Explud. This is of course by no means limited to the states. There feels like fewer and fewer safe places to be in the world. People just don't want to care about things outside their immediate bubble. And ultimately it's going to all come crashing down.

This is not the point. And the fact is that from everywhere it looks like only one country in the World is more important than all the others. ONE COUNTRY takes a lot of space here, for some discussions for what's going on there and nobody cares what happens at the rest of the world.

I don't like it. No geography. Love is all.
This place is international and not about politics.

Quote from: Explud on Nov 04, 2020, 22:36

Probably I could have discussed here the presidential elections in Russia 2.5 years ago, but who am I.. And who cares.. Yep..

Well presumably freedom of speech exists on the forum. So you could have brought it up. If people start discussions on something and others reply then... it's a discussion. If no one replies, then the subject or the thread goes dead, right?

If you had brought up discussion of the 21 journalists said to have been murdered since Putin came to power in 2000, I for one, would have been intrigued to hear your take on that and also on democracy in Russia.

Quote from: Explud on Nov 04, 2020, 22:36

Probably I could have discussed here the presidential elections in Russia 2.5 years ago, but who am I.. And who cares.. Yep..

Hey Explud. I would care a lot and be happy if you could share some of your thoughts on that, too.
The only reason why we're talking about the US right now is that we have lots of US forumites and currently a mad king with nuclear missiles at his disposal who put the whole world in a frenzy.

What I would really like to know about developments in your country: How do you feel about the most recent effort by your president to change the constitution to become re-electable beyond the current term limit?

Peace and love!

I wanna see Trump do the perp walk out of the White House when he loses

Tbh, I couldn't sleep last night because of the ongoing vote counting in this country, so somewhat of a small anxiety. So I won't divulge on candidates, battlestates, or dumb post-election lawsuits.

But I will say this, there WILL be some peace of mind for all of us this Thanksgiving and Xmas once these results are finished. At least have some great glimmer of hope at the end of this year.

All of you living here in the US, and outside of the US, please be safe wherever you go after this election ends. Sending nothing but Star Guitar vibes to you all...

...and more pictures of Frank please!

Quote from: Enjoyed on Nov 03, 2020, 18:36

My wife and I have basically stopped talking to a lot of family on the other side of this thing - at this stage, it honestly feels futile and an unnecessary spenditure of much needed mental energy to try and engage with them in a meaningful way. We're both incredibly anxious about the results. I'm scared for my city, for the country... We had another spot on the news last night and they gave out our business' address - it worried me.

I also have relatives who are not on speaking terms with me, and fortunately, I dont care! It's not worth it and it makes my brain hurt. Wait till the holidays if your gonna make any conversational moves.

I hope the police or the guard can do a round in that area tonight. Hopefully they can catch gatherings (unlawful assembly) before they start their shit. Keep us posted please.

Please be safe Enjoyed.

Quote from: inchemwetrust on Nov 06, 2020, 04:35

But I will say this, there WILL be some peace of mind for all of us this Thanksgiving and Xmas once these results are finished. At least have some great glimmer of hope at the end of this year.

I appreciate the positivity, but I'm not certain we'll get that peace of mind through the end of the year. At best, given the recent activity at Halloween, crowds at election day, and students still returning to schools, I anticipate a spike in already rising Covid numbers. Once Thanksgiving comes, people will want to see families or holiday shop, guaranteeing larger numbers by xmas. And that is a best case if this election nonsense doesn't turn into civil violence or the end game stage of an attempted coup on top of the continuing pandemic that is not being taken seriously here.

Mine is quite a pessimistic outlook and I prefer yours, but time and time again this year the American people have disappointed me with worst case scenario outcomes. Yes, there will likely be a collective sigh of relief today or tomorrow, but sadly I don't think we'll be over the slump until Jan. or later. And then, at best, we'll have mediocre Biden with McConnell and Pelosi to help us clean up these messes.

I'm very sorry I just crapped on your quote, inchem. We need more statements of hope like yours. And thank you for the Star Guitar vibes, I needed them. Right back at you, because it sounds like you have family issues and legit safety concerns: I recognize you are also feeling the gravity of this mess. Good deal if you are coping better than I am, and stay safe.

We flipped Pennsylvania and Georgia. And this lead for Biden will only grow as the last districts left to be counted are very pro Biden.

Looks like Trump will be a one term president!  :)

I have lived in PA for almost 2 years now and happy it has turned back to blue.

Quote from: Explud on Nov 04, 2020, 22:56

This is not the point. And the fact is that from everywhere it looks like only one country in the World is more important than all the others. ONE COUNTRY takes a lot of space here, for some discussions for what's going on there and nobody cares what happens at the rest of the world.

I don't like it. No geography. Love is all.
This place is international and not about politics.

I respect your opinion and ultimately feel the same way. I don't enjoy talking USA politics or corresponding events that affect my nations future. Especially in such an international forum, where underlying arrogance and biases are hard to hide from. So I'm totally aware of this issue and apologize if you feel bothered by it.

But try and look at this thread as group therapy for some of us Americans (and maybe for those interested from afar). Sometimes it's not what you have to say, but it's what the next person says that can help you confirm or help you manifest your own opinion. It's a silly exercise, but a healthy one.

And for the record, I appreciate the international folks that chime in about the United States. It's amazing how much you are all knowledgeable about America. It's embarrassing to admit, but sometimes you know more than me regarding my own country. Thus, I learn from you guys and gals.


tl;dr, The title of this thread is apt.

This just popped up on my twitter feed, and as an European I have to admint that this is accurate
https://twitter.com/VivianeRedingEU/status/1324797812886904834


Also, what a nail-biter to watch who's going to win an election where one candidate is *checks notes* 4 million votes ahead with nearly all votes counted.

Quote from: satur8 on Nov 06, 2020, 16:12

I appreciate the positivity, but I'm not certain we'll get that peace of mind through the end of the year. At best, given the recent activity at Halloween, crowds at election day, and students still returning to schools, I anticipate a spike in already rising Covid numbers. Once Thanksgiving comes, people will want to see families or holiday shop, guaranteeing larger numbers by xmas. And that is a best case if this election nonsense doesn't turn into civil violence or the end game stage of an attempted coup on top of the continuing pandemic that is not being taken seriously here.

Mine is quite a pessimistic outlook and I prefer yours, but time and time again this year the American people have disappointed me with worst case scenario outcomes. Yes, there will likely be a collective sigh of relief today or tomorrow, but sadly I don't think we'll be over the slump until Jan. or later. And then, at best, we'll have mediocre Biden with McConnell and Pelosi to help us clean up these messes.

I think Satur8 is right. While it will be a brief sigh of relief on what looks to be what will be called a Joe Biden victory, this leaders of this nation are so far behind the 8-ball when it comes to appropriate response behind the pandemic. The Trump administration was so headstrong on maintaining market gains to bolster his chances at re-elect, containing the virus without deep consequences is a pipe dream at this point. Seemingly, are only hope is to fast-track a "miracle vaccine" before our economy inevitably collapses.

Public mask mandates is non-sense. Not because I don't believe in it, but because there is such a divide and such resistance from Trumpers at this point that the cost of making everyone abide by it is a death sentence.

FUCK. I'M SO SORRY BOSCO. I edited your post instead of quoting it. Fuck. I am so so sorry.

I'm going to try and write down as much as I can remember of what you said:

You agreed with Stefan on his more tempered hope for the coming months.
Joe winning would be a small victory but he has his work cut out for him. Finding a solution to the pandemic at this point is a pipedream. Short of a rushed vaccine, the economy is going to be destroyed during the fallout of a Trump presidency that tried to downplay the virus in a bid to bolster the economy.


Again. I'm really sorry Bosco.
I've tried to search for cached versions of the site to see if I could find what you wrote. There's no saved history of post edits on the forum, at least of the content that existed originally, so it seems to be lost. I feel really bad. I was just trying to follow up with a question about something you wrote at the end.

Quote from: Enjoyed on Nov 06, 2020, 21:41

FUCK. I'M SO SORRY BOSCO. I edited your post instead of quoting it. Fuck. I am so so sorry.

Banned.

Quote from: Wolkenkrabber on Nov 05, 2020, 01:47

If you had brought up discussion of the 21 journalists said to have been murdered since Putin came to power in 2000, I for one, would have been intrigued to hear your take on that and also on democracy in Russia.

I can only say that I am shocked by what you've writing, because even an ardent oppositionist to the Putin inside our country does not bring such a big fakes. What is this information? Where is it from?

Quote from: Csar on Nov 05, 2020, 10:19

What I would really like to know about developments in your country: How do you feel about the most recent effort by your president to change the constitution to become re-electable beyond the current term limit?

I wonder that you know about this, I thought the rest of the world didn't even know about it.
And the answer is - negative. No one of my friends and colleagues voted for the amendments positive and were mostly against it.
Most I know voted negatively, but the official numbers did the trick.

Unfortunately, in our populous large country there is a large layer of elderly people with "Soviet" thinking. "The ruling political party said what's right - so it's right, no need to think about it." They just turning on the TV and making sure of this.
And this is our main problem.

One guy in the neighborhood decided to steal elections from a people, who also speak russian, they got tired of watching TV, now they on streets.

Quote from: Enjoyed on Nov 06, 2020, 21:41

I'm going to try and write down as much as I can remember of what you said

Yep, it's a bummer, development team want to implement this in a new versions of the forum engine.
And I only have an incremental backup for a day, full for a week. But not the backups of an every hour.

So.. be careful >:D

I don't usually get political on the internet, but I do want to say that when/if Trump loses the election, he will still be president for 2 more months and I can guarantee that those 2 months will be Hell for the U.S.

Quote from: Explud on Nov 06, 2020, 22:24

I can only say that I am shocked by what you've writing, because even an ardent oppositionist to the Putin inside our country does not bring such a big fakes. What is this information? Where is it from

click (https://www.npr.org/2018/04/21/604497554/why-do-russian-journalists-keep-falling?t=1604705716311)
click2 (https://www.politifact.com/article/2016/jan/04/does-vladimir-putin-kill-journalists/)
click 3 (https://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2012/mar/11/journalist-safety-vladimir-putin)
click 4 (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia)
click 5 (https://www.voanews.com/archive/europe-outraged-over-slain-russian-journalists-murder)

Quote from: Enjoyed on Nov 06, 2020, 21:41

FUCK. I'M SO SORRY BOSCO. I edited your post instead of quoting it. Fuck. I am so so sorry.

No problem. All saved on this end. Edited the edited/mis-deleted post  :P

What was follow up question by the way?

Oh thank goodness!

Quote from: Bosco on Nov 06, 2020, 21:04

Public mask mandates is non-sense. Not because I don't believe in it, but because there is such a divide and such resistance from Trumpers at this point that the cost of making everyone abide by it is a death sentence.

What is the cost of making people abide do you think? The financial cost of having people employed to turn people away at stores if guidelines aren't being followed? Or the human cost of trying to tell people to do something they wont, which is futile and ultimately a time waste, and an emotional drain on anyone having to do it?
We're very lucky in Oregon, certainly in the city of Portland, that basically everyone follows the rules. The anti-maskers are very, very much in the minority and, as a result (I assume), the state has the third lowest number of deaths (and cases, I believe) in the country. Do you think there's a better solution out there that would help everyone? Or is your point more that it's kind of too late to try and change the behaviours of those people and better time and effort could be spent into other solutions (like the rush vaccine, or this new potential nose spray thing)?

Trying not to pay attention to the results until we actually know.  I just buried my dad, so my anxiety can't take it.  I also can't take much more of people who aren't doing the bare fucking minimum to stop spreading the very thing that killed my father.  This shit went nowhere, but our sanity, comprehension of basic science, and any compassion for others skipped town. 

Quote from: Born In Planet Dust on Nov 07, 2020, 08:33

Trying not to pay attention to the results until we actually know.  I just buried my dad, so my anxiety can't take it.  I also can't take much more of people who aren't doing the bare fucking minimum to stop spreading the very thing that killed my father.  This shit went nowhere, but our sanity, comprehension of basic science, and any compassion for others skipped town.

Oh fuck, that's horrible. Words can describe how sorry I am for your loss. Wish I could give you a hug.

Right now, for some reason, all I can say that there's alot of cars honking on my streets. And I mean happy honking!

As far as I can tell, some kind of congratulations are in order to our american chemical brothers and sisters.  ;D

Quote from: Born In Planet Dust on Nov 07, 2020, 08:33

Trying not to pay attention to the results until we actually know.  I just buried my dad, so my anxiety can't take it.  I also can't take much more of people who aren't doing the bare fucking minimum to stop spreading the very thing that killed my father.  This shit went nowhere, but our sanity, comprehension of basic science, and any compassion for others skipped town.

Dang, I'm so sorry.

Quote from: Enjoyed on Nov 07, 2020, 02:34

Oh thank goodness!

What is the cost of making people abide do you think? The financial cost of having people employed to turn people away at stores if guidelines aren't being followed? Or the human cost of trying to tell people to do something they wont, which is futile and ultimately a time waste, and an emotional drain on anyone having to do it?
We're very lucky in Oregon, certainly in the city of Portland, that basically everyone follows the rules. The anti-maskers are very, very much in the minority and, as a result (I assume), the state has the third lowest number of deaths (and cases, I believe) in the country. Do you think there's a better solution out there that would help everyone? Or is your point more that it's kind of too late to try and change the behaviours of those people and better time and effort could be spent into other solutions (like the rush vaccine, or this new potential nose spray thing)?

The cost would be three-fold. The employment of policing, the cost of convincing of people who will relentlessly resist, and the litigation factor of defining the legal definition of "what is a violation?" (which will be countlessly challenged).

Policing public mask-wearing should have been mandated as a "state of emergency" from our government at the start of pandemic. That did not happen. CEO's of corporate "essential good" stores failed as well. They should have privately taken the step of hiring rent-a-cops to police mask wearing in-store. This did not happen (or at least in my area).

So yeah, my point is it's too late. I don't foresee the Biden campaign bringing any better solutions to the pandemic than what Trump was providing at this point. The Biden campaign's attitude will be more attentive and more sympathetic to the public, but they will be desperately chasing a vaccine just like Donald was.

Yeah. Fair enough! Thanks for sharing.

The fact that there is STILL no single body to report violations to (social distancing and gatherings, too) is utterly ridiculous. I guess I was being close-minded and rather head-in-the-clouds with hope that Biden would be able to quell some of the spread in some way. But I think you're right. The states where masks are still not mandated, and schools are open, and concerts and large gatherings are still happening, aren't suddenly going to listen to the new president they didn't vote for. Maybe there's hope that some of the right that is now trying to distance themselves from Mr. Trumpers will have a more tempered and humanitarian approach to it? In an effort to claw back some of the support they lost by supporting him in the first place? Probably not.

Quote from: Born In Planet Dust on Nov 07, 2020, 08:33

Trying not to pay attention to the results until we actually know.  I just buried my dad, so my anxiety can't take it.  I also can't take much more of people who aren't doing the bare fucking minimum to stop spreading the very thing that killed my father.  This shit went nowhere, but our sanity, comprehension of basic science, and any compassion for others skipped town.

So sorry to hear that.
My most sincere condolences.

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/ccc75cc6ae22c8ff45a67e7a8645ffcf/tenor.gif?itemid=19070101)

A little dramatic but overall...yes.
https://twitter.com/AmarAmarasingam/status/1327301202825121793

Also I was amused that Giuliani went ahead with a press conference at Four Seasons Total Landscaping despite the fact that they clearly booked the wrong venue.
Not as amused as this lady. But pretty amused.
https://twitter.com/SiobhanBenita/status/1325715273647878144

Oh what a beautiful rant. I wish I could be angry so eloquently. Also, I don't find it overly dramatic. Even after four years, I'm still shocked that somebody like Trump, with his complete disregard and ignorance of democratic principles, his unwillingness to govern for anyone but himself, his brazen corruption and nepotism, his overt racism and sexism, could become a candidate for a presidency, let alone win an election in an alleged free democracy. I'm incredilby glad that he will be gone soon.
The sad thing is that the system and structures which enabled him in the first place are still there.

Oh, the Four Seasons Total Landscaping incident was hilarious!

Quote from: Stefan on Nov 14, 2020, 21:31

Oh, the Four Seasons Total Landscaping incident was hilarious!

Quote from: Wolkenkrabber on Nov 14, 2020, 19:20

Also I was amused that Giuliani went ahead with a press conference at Four Seasons Total Landscaping despite the fact that they clearly booked the wrong venue.

Whenever I'm feeling down (reading too much Reddit, remembering that almost 50% of this country voted for another 4 years of destruction, knowing that an absolutely insane number of people think this election was fraudulent despite LITERALLY 0 EVIDENCE) I think of this utterly hilarious fuck up. On that Saturday a friend was sending me meme after meme about the whole situation. It's glorious. It brings me much joy. A press conference between a funeral home and a sex shop, because Trump and his lying cronies should all go fuck themselves and die  :))

Quote from: Stefan on Nov 14, 2020, 21:31

Oh what a beautiful rant.

Well in that case you might like this. I realise Norton is just an actor, but woah, this 7-tweet thread seems to have some resonance.
Do Americans think Trump will be prosecuted for tax avoidance (or other stuff) once he stops being President, or is that just tribal talk?

https://twitter.com/EdwardNorton/status/1329728890143576070

Sometimes I hate being an American

https://twitter.com/i/status/1344306176805249027

embarrassing

I just now woke up to this on my day off (a day that makes me forget about the world and relax) and all over the internet and TV the capitol is under control by Trump Supporters, proud boys and the Neo-Nazis.

I can't believe this is my country. I never hated being a U.S. citizen more than ever in my life.

EDIT: people have broken into the senate floor, and somebody is unpacking something in their backpack. where are the cops?

If someone told me 20 years ago that I would be seeing sights such as I've seen today in US Capitol building, I would told him/her to take their meds.
That people would be shot and explosive devices would be used, is beyond the pale.
Trump should and must be held responsible for insurrection.
If not treason.
Good Lord, world has gone completely mad!

The frustrating thing is that this is not at all surprising. From the start of his first campaign Trump peddled to white nationalists and far right extremists, his reelection campaign was basically casting doubt and deligitemizeing democratic procedures and institutions, that there's no way he could loose a fair election. Yeah no shit his fanboys believe everything he says.

In his first statement, Trump still speaks of a stolen election.
The Republican party either endorsed, or, at best, ignored the Fascist In Chiefs violent language, or shrugged it off as colourful exaggeration. 
If there's any shred of integrity left in the Republican Party, they should impeach the whole Trump administration even before his term ends in two weeks.

Well said you guys. It's insane what happening.

I have not replied on this thread. The majority of the time, my voice is not the important one. There are always voices unheard. That said, I recognized long ago that I have a voice of privilege (White, Male, Cisgendered, Straight, Over-educated, Financially stable).

Many of you may remember I completed Grad School in DC. I feel motivated to share my fond nostalgic memories associated with The Capitol Building.

My first trip to DC, I was formally invited to the Capitol, as part of group, by non-paritzan parliamentarian officials. I toured the building and met said officials in one of the private offices. As a non-American, I felt privileged and humbled.

Days after moving there to start grad school, I sat with 'patriots' (retirees, service members, office workers) on the West Lawn watching the NSO play a concert of American symphonic standards. I personally knew the conductor from working alongside him in Canada. That night, I felt nervously inspired for the mind expanding journey about to commence.

Canada Day 2016, my American friend friend from Indiana and I 'stormed the building' claiming it for the Red Coats / Canadians. By that, I meant we wore bad Canadian maple leaf shirts and secretly drank Crown Royal and Coke in front of the West Entrance. That day, I felt Sportive as I challenged my 'adversary' to 'see' a different point of view.

The night after graduating, me and my sister rode bikes around the building and ended up circling around the east side 'square' for about a half hour with only us and the Capitol Hill Police present. That night, I felt inspired to help others in the future through the support of my family.

Independence Day 2017, started blocks away playing True American with a group of friends. We walked to the south side of the building for the fireworks. I made the arduous decision to move home days prior as my options were evaporating. A friend gave me a hug as I cried. That night, I accepted my shortcomings in sadness.

Outside those experiences, I toured the area with guests, planted the seeds of an intense relationship while exploring institutions around, or walked past the building many times en route to other destinations. I've witnessed peaceful protests, I've watched Wedding photos take place, I've peacefully fallen asleep underneath the trees on the lawn surround the building. I could always tell where I was in the city by looking for the bright white dome reaching to the sky. To me, The Capitol Building symbolizes respect.





















In horror from afar Today, I watched violent anarchy unfold.

You guys are on the money. Just a completely bizarre and disheartening day in America.

And Rynostar, thanks for sharing your experiences about DC and the sanctity of Capitol Hill. I'm far from any patriot, but I appreciate your respect for my country.



To take things on a little different of a tangent...

Another amazing thing that happened today, was Trump getting suspended by Twitter for a 12 hour period. Imagine being the "leader of the free world" and reprimanded by the most influential media platform in the world.

I'm a huge free speech proponent. I've worked for the ACLU, the EFF, and the Reporter's Committee for Freedom of the Press. I've even had the opportunity to represent clients in court where I have advocated on behalf of their First Amendment rights to free expression.

I believe censorship is an abhorrent concept, and I support allowing informed minds come to reasonable decisions after discussion.

And I believe it was absolutely the right decision to silence President Trump.

I have never in my entire life been more disappointed in America than this moment.

Quote from: Bosco on Jan 07, 2021, 06:56

Another amazing thing that happened today, was Trump getting suspended by Twitter for a 12 hour period.

12h is nothing, way to short. He goes to bed, sleeps a couple of hours and can go on like nothing happened. And to be honest, social media, espacially twitter, should have reacted weeks, months and maybe years ago. I think they too have blood on their hands. Yes, it's a sad and ashaming day for the States (not the first time in the past months), but acting suprised like no one could have seen that coming 10 weeks ago - i don't know.

What I still can't wrap my head around is the fact of a meager presence of law enforcement on a day like that. The rally was announced, the climate already explosive and they had the certification process taking place. What were they thinking?

I'm really not the best person to explain this, but why this happened has a lot to do with white priviledge. Threats of violence from the far right/white nationalists are usually underestimated if not downright dismissed in both government and media. Just think about the stark difference of police response between here and the BLM protests.
Any group other than white people would have probalbly been shot on sight if they breached a barrier with so much as a coffee cup in their hands.

Just saw that video where that lady got shot when she was told not to enter, including the rest of the idiots trying to do photo-ops inside the capitol.

This the same place where congress have met since 1800, laws have been written, and presidents sworn in, only to be desecrated by those with a false belief of their 'patriotism'! The politicians that let and allowed this monster to grow beyond their control within the last 4 years and are now just barely asking for his removal!!

I hope twiiter and Facebook sack him on Inauguration Day. I just wish they would've muzzled him way earlier before.

Ryno, I'm happy that you ran into some great moments (and people) on your visit.  Those are the kinds of thing alot Americans don't see everyday but here's to hoping that we start seeing more of those exact sights, sounds,and tourism, to more parts of this country after what happened today.

Stefan! Your exactly right. If I came within an inch of reaching the front door at the capitol with a taco in hand, I probably would've had a riot shield up my ass.

Damn America! What in the hell happened to ya?

Some of those who work forces, are the same that burn crosses.

The cops knew. They let it happen. Because they are fuelled by the same insanity gas that the Red Hats are breathing in every day. I'm generalising, of course, but you only have to look at the video of the cops LETTING THE PROTESTORS THROUGH THE BARRICADE to see that this was not only expected, but readily aided and abetted by a large number of our 'boys in blue'.

Embarrassing doesn't even cut it.

Quote from: ThePumisher on Jan 07, 2021, 14:26

12h is nothing, way to short. He goes to bed, sleeps a couple of hours and can go on like nothing happened. And to be honest, social media, espacially twitter, should have reacted weeks, months and maybe years ago. I think they too have blood on their hands.

I don't disagree with you, but as much as we hate or dispute everything he says, we have to remember Twitter (and other social media platforms) are not a literal news source, it's a glorified manifestation of a worldwide AOL chatroom. If you are receiving bad information, offensive information, false information within the medium... that's on the user, and a reminder that the freedom of free speech is a bit challenging most of the time.

His senatorial and congressional colleagues are the ones to hold accountable. They failed to be truthful and failed to have the best interest of the public in mind. This entire administration was a damaging waste of time.

Punk-Ass Bitches

Quote from: Bosco on Jan 07, 2021, 22:51

we have to remember Twitter (and other social media platforms) are not a literal news source, it's a glorified manifestation of a worldwide AOL chatroom. If you are receiving bad information, offensive information, false information within the medium... that's on the user, and a reminder that the freedom of free speech is a bit challenging most of the time.

They closed his account forever...

Quote from: ThePumisher on Jan 08, 2021, 23:56

They closed his account forever...

https://twitter.com/TwitterSafety/status/1347684877634838528

This will hurt him more than his lost election. It will hopefully make things a little less stressing in the months to come as he can't further poison the public climate with his incendiary drivel - at least not as easily. He can now exercise his First Amendment rights somewhere else. Maybe they should errect a Trump Speaker's Corner around Mar-a-Lago.

Quote from: ThePumisher on Jan 08, 2021, 23:56

They closed his account forever...

https://twitter.com/TwitterSafety/status/1347684877634838528

Happy to see it. Twitter's a private company and definitely is in it's right to make this happen.

But if I can look at this objectively, rather than the symbolic lynching we have been waiting for, what exactly does this do? Are we banning Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, Rudy Giuliani, Trump family members and his countless other constituents from twitter, too? Seems like it mutates the problem rather than address it. Maybe there's more to come, I don't know...

Visuals of him having a hissy-fit over his Twitter banning will have to do for now.

@Csar: I totally agree with you, Trump will be incredibly angry about this. For probably the first time in his live, his bad actions led to serious consequences. To somebody not using Twitter or social media much, this might not seem that important, but being a media personality was the only thing Trump ever had any success in (He never was a successful businessman). Trump made his wealth by inheritance, tax evasion/fraud, and, in the last two decades or so, as a reality-TV personality. There his act was the strong and tough boss and businessman and his erratic behaviour was what brought him the audience rating.
He did pretty much the same in his presidency, building what can only be described as a personality cult around him. And now, his media outlet was taken away from him.
Sure, it is relatively easy to move to another platform, but he will never be able to rebuild the outreach he had on Twitter.

Glorified AOL chatroom it may be, but official accounts of elected officials should probably be held to higher standards.
Also, I'm anything but a free speech or American law expert, but aren't Twitter, Facebook etc. privately owned companies, and, as such, they can choose whichever content to allow or block?
Is the free speech/censorship argument applicable here?


@Bosco: yeah, it would be bad if Trump were the only one to face consequences now. Too many on all levels and branches of gouvernment fully endorsed or simply ignored Trumps actions. It would send a terrible signal if they could just continue their jobs as if nothing has happened.
I do think any consequences for Trumps supporters and enablers should be more political, that blocking their social media won't do much now that the central figure is gone there.

So, among the 4 dead during the Capitol attack, one man had a taser concealed in his pants and accidentally tased his balls multiple times until he had a heart attack, and one woman who was carrying a "Don't tread on me" flag (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag) was trampled to death... I mean you can't make this shit up. If God exists he's got a dark sense of humor

Quote from: Stefan on Jan 09, 2021, 01:45

@Bosco: yeah, it would be bad if Trump were the only one to face consequences now. Too many on all levels and branches of gouvernment fully endorsed or simply ignored Trumps actions. It would send a terrible signal if they could just continue their jobs as if nothing has happened.
I do think any consequences for Trumps supporters and enablers should be more political, that blocking their social media won't do much now that the central figure is gone there.

Oh definitely the consequences should come outside of social media. I just was putting it in the scope of Twitter.

But yeah, to go a bit further about my point.. I think the banning of his account is a bit meaningless under the current circumstances. Without his account, there is plenty of minions to spread his lies and cries of being victimized. Twitter has essentially martyred him according to his followers. Unless there is more action by Twitter (particularly towards his associates), this smells like damage control for the company and not some moral stand.

And now I hear he tried circumventing the ban by posting using the Presidential account. LOL

https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/8/22221683/trump-tried-to-evade-his-ban-with-potus-but-those-tweets-were-instantly-deleted

Freedom of speech is one thing, but with great power comes great responsibility. If you abuse that power by spreading lies about a "rigged" election and by inciting an insurrection, then you may lose that power and freedom.

Btw the first 3 or 4 mins of this footage is incredible. Imagine being a newsman and *going in* with the MAGA mob. Well actually don't imagine, just watch.
https://twitter.com/MattGarrahan/status/1346959244051013634

This is the danger of living in an echo chamber. This forum may be a bit of an echo chamber - but that probably just results in us being mildly more obsessed with big beats than we might otherwise be. But if you believe everything "political" you read in your social media bubble...well you end up like these guys who seem to blame everyone else.

https://twitter.com/susie_dent/status/1346915538698727428

Is it wrong to look for humour in all this? DJ Artwork's Jamiroquoi comment on twitter was quite good.
Also:

https://twitter.com/Luiseach/status/1347235892784746502

https://twitter.com/eoinburgin/status/1346946053082378245

This is the first time a sitting president has been banned from Twitter going back to 1812!

Its 4 am, where I am a right now.

Spoiler

I've been awake for almost an hour now. I can't sleep, and am shaking as I type this. I had a nightmare that somebody in my friend group ended up ratting my family out to the KKK. In that nightmare they started leaving Burnt crosses and dead birds and cats on our front lawn. then it started getting violent, like broken windows, our car getting keyed and slashed, and our poor dog going missing, yanked from our own back yard. and then the final night, they got brave, they surrounded my house with me and my mom inside, the leader had a megaphone and kept telling me my sister and stepdad are dead, our dog is dead. Every time I looked out the window I see them standing outside, as goats and weird pitch black creatures circle the house. when we try calling the cops, they hacked our phone lines and 911 kept rerouting us to a phone number saying "You have reached 666 all our lines are busy at the moment, would you like to talk to our supervisor, the devil?" We had no weapons to fight back, no guns, no knives. they kept throwing rocks in our windows, and telling us we're just delaying the inevitable. the last thing I asked was why are they doing this, and the leader told me "Because you were born a half blooded [mexican slur], as they began charging into my home. then I woke up. never have I ever been this scared for my life, or my family's. every 2 minutes I keep hearing things outside my window, and I think its them.

I have violent nightmares, but usually there's some aspect to them that makes me realize they're fictitious but this felt too real. this is the first time, that I can remember, waking up sweaty. I'm sorry if I disturbed anybody on here, but I feel like I can trust you guys in saying this.

^There is plenty of nightmare juice to go around these days. Can't speak on your individual case, but I would say you're not alone sleeping with stressful thoughts.

Conn6orsuper117 - I'm sorry that this history and reality has affected anyone ever, and that it still does at all. I'm also sorry that you carry this additional stress and fear for your loved ones due to the hate and ignorance of others. I can never relate to your experience through anything but empathy in that I can imagine what that must be like, but I can never truly understand what it IS like. And  I agree, this is a great group of people here that seem to function on a higher level. Thank you for your bravery in sharing.

There will always be hateful and violent people, be it mobs of racists, militarized police forces, or even suburban housewives that will shrug their shoulders as brown children are separated from their asylum seeking parents and thrown into mass cages with no futures. If we didn't like the American taste we saw over the last 4 years, just wait until climate change starts feeling real to most people. Nevertheless, THEY are the minority and the people have chosen against them, and hopefully the masses will continue to loudly and proudly demand justice, equality, and equity for all those who have suffered through color, heritage, religion, gender, or sexual preference. There are more of us and we are growing, and we WILL make them hide their faces again and fear our numbers.

As a father, I am doing my part to raise a conscious, kind, and intelligent young man: I can't take all the credit, he's naturally pretty great. Just know that some of us are working overtime on this.

My grandmother just passed away. In itself, this news brings me a lot of sadness, but it's exacerbated by the fact I was about to announce to her that I'm going to have my first child. She had a big health issue a month ago, and had been recovering in a nursing home since, which depressed her a lot. I was hoping this kind of good news would hopefuly cheer her up and help her hang in there, but now she'll never know. Later today we're going to get the first ultrasound of the baby, so today is really as much as a rollercoaster of emotions as can be...

Sorry on your loss and at the same time congrats on your child

Oh Benji, this is so sad to read. I hope you are ok and I hope she didn't have to suffer for too long. Having been a guardian for my grandma for 8 years now, I know how difficult this is. She's started to become less and less healthy since the pandemic (she even had Covid at one point and recovered). Three weeks ago she even had to undergo surgery where I had to make the decision to have one of her toes amputated.
It's so heart-wrenching to see someone you love gradually fade away.

Congratulations on your first child! It's really sad your grandma will not be there to see and experience it. But I believe as sad as this is, your child will be bringing you the greatest happiness.

Ben J, congrats! We knew you could do it :-*

But yeah, I'm sorry to hear about your Grandmother. It's sad seeing the senior members of our families and society go. Even though you never got to deliver the news, I'm sure she would been delighted with it, and really proud of you no matter what.

Best wishes to you and your family.

Sorry to hear about your grandmother Ben_J. :( My absolute condolences to you and your family.

I hope that the spark of the new life will help to balance out the grief from the loss of another of your family. Congratulations.

I'm sorry for your loss, Ben_j. The situation is heartbreaking.

However, conrgats on your good news! I did not become the man I am until I became a father. It sounds cliché and I would have rolled my eyes as a younger man hearing it, and I know people can achieve happiness without children...but know that your best will become better with this life change.

Thanks for your messages <3

Yesterday was a mega shit day. My Grandpa (mamasuper's father) has finally passed away after being bedridden for 3 days, he had cancer and recently discovered shingles on his back. He didn't go down without a fight (he's always been a fighter, especially in service during the Korean War) but sadly after a 3 year battle, he couldn't no more.
The last time I talked to him was over the phone the night before, he couldn't even speak but all I got was an enthusiastic "Hmmm-mmmm" when he heard me and my sister over the phone. I wanted to come to support him but my mom insisted I stayed behind. He's with grandma now, and hopefully finally at peace.
God speed, grandpa! I miss you.

sorry Conn6or, never easy to lose a loved one. I hope you and your Mom can find solace that he won't suffer anymore.

Oh Connor, I am so sorry to hear that. My deepest condolences. A little surprising, though, that your Mom didn't let you go see him.
May he be at peace and in beautiful place.

Quote from: Csar on Jun 29, 2021, 09:44

Oh Connor, I am so sorry to hear that. My deepest condolences. A little surprising, though, that your Mom didn't let you go see him.
May he be at peace and in beautiful place.

Mom told me he was in extremely poor shape since the last time we saw him 4 weeks ago (he lost much more weight and his nostrils were starting to tear so he was wearing a bandaid when we saw him). She didn't want us to be heartbroken at the sight of him, and to remember him the way he looked when we last saw him.
I still wanted to go though to support him.

My condolences to you and your family Connor. :(

How to go about talking about the BLM response to the Jussie Smollett trial.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/statement-regarding-the-ongoing-trial-of-jussie-smollett/

For those not in the loop, Jussie Smollett (was) a fairly well-known actor, who for whatever reason decided to fraudulently create a hate crime where he was the victim.

In doing so, he insulted, disrespected and disregarded every victim of a hate crime. He was going to point the finger at whatever innocent bystander happened to be rounded up by police should the investigation have gone the way he wanted.

After the facts came out and it was clear that he had faked a hate crime, he was charged numerous times with a few crimes related to the act, including filing a false police report, and felony disorderly conduct.

And somehow, the spokespeople behind the BLM movement call him "a Black man who has been courageously present, visible, and vocal in the struggle for Black freedom."

This was a cowardly, heinous, malicious act. This was not courageous at all. I cannot support this, and I fear that the conversation about race relations in the United States has just taken a very unfortunate turn.

This article covers timeline of this whole sorry mess pretty well

https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-47317701

What one can say with certainty is he did nobody, not black community or gay people, any favours.

Btw, I've never heard or seen that guy until he started popping up on news sites year ago.
It's my understanding he's some sort of actor and singer?
Oh yeah, and pretty narcissistic, it seems. 

Whoopi Goldberg, host of The View on America's NBC, just got suspended from hosting because she said that the Holocaust wasn't about race, it was about groups of people fighting each other.

She apologized later in a tweet and stated that the Holocaust *was* actually about race, and that she was sorry if she hurt anyone.

The apology was insufficient, apparently.

What's strange is that, from what I understand about the Holocaust, literally millions of people died and it had nothing to do with their race. Sure--the "white Aryan" race was the foundation of the Nazi party, the idea that "white" European ancestry was superior, much in the same way that some wizards in Harry Potter decried "half-bloods" and persecuted "muggles."

But it wasn't *all* about race. That's an absolutely accurate statement, and one close to what Whoopi said. People were persecuted and killed for all sorts of reasons--I think that the queer community probably has a basis for offense here, actually. White, blue-eyed, blonde-haired Aryans were killed not because they were a different "race," but because they were gay.

I can understand the offense, I suppose--people will get offended at just about anything. But somehow people demanded more, because someone without a history degree, or any other sort of academic specialization or credentials, said something in an off-hand comment that did not strictly align with the narrative of the Holocaust, which may or may not be accurate depending on whom you ask.

I think the response to Whoopi Goldberg's comment was ignorant. And I think that all we're doing is promoting ignorance.

But let's go ahead and fix racism by firing talk show hosts.

Someone asked me if I was stupid on Reddit. In response, I asked them if they were fucking retarded.

My account was suspended for 3 days.

I deactivated my account.

Quote from: MadPooter on Feb 18, 2022, 14:57

Someone asked me if I was stupid on Reddit. In response, I asked them if they were fucking retarded.

My account was suspended for 3 days.

I deactivated my account.

Several subs have very douchy mods, i regularly browse codzombies reddit and im genuinely convinced the mods single me out, as every video and post i make in the past 3 weeks have been removed "for disturbing guidelines and uncivil behavior," like bitch, what am i doing?
You know what you did.
No i dont!
Well you did, we're just not gonna tell you.

The only subs where the mods are cool are the fairly underground subreddits, like SSX, Rct even the chemical brothers sub (though the moderator bot is kinda annoying, as it tends to shadowban newcomers)

The reasons that I was given was that my behavior was considered either "harassing" or "bullying."

Harassment is, by definition, repeated conduct over a span of time aimed toward an individual with the intent of causing them distress or anxiety.

Bullying is, by definition, trying to "harm, intimidate or coerce" someone through behavior aimed at them.

Reddit mods understand "harassment" as one unfriendly instance of communication between you and another user.

Reddit mods also understand "bullying" as responding to an insult directed at you with offensive language.

Context will probably give more of a picture here, but dude... you're better than this.

Don't look at the this from a legal standpoint and justify yourself by breaking down definitions and whatnot. You're hardly being punished and if anything, your retort was tasteless. Sure you're not the original offender and it sucks to be reprimanded, but is your reddit reputation so important that you much challenge a dimwitted comment towards you?

Sticks and stones, brotha

Well I'm not gonna tell you off pooter other than to suggest that this might be more of a "what really grinds my gears" thread subject.
However the words of the great Sir Alex Ferguson spring to mind: "It's always the one who retaliates who gets punished".
He found this out as a player and later as manager of Manchester United, he would advise his players to watch out for the referee: "if you get fouled and you retalite, you will probably be the one who is punished by officials".
I'm not saying it's right, it is alas, just the way it tends to go. You have my sympathies.

I understand where people are coming from. Unfortunately, people don't understand where I am coming from.

I embrace and I value freedom of speech. Period.

Notwithstanding actual hate speech, I do not believe someone's offense should be valued above someone else's ability to speak.

I certainly don't believe that because someone ignorantly believes they *should* be offended by someone else's speech that the offending speaker should be silenced.

I believe that we can and should consider the speaker's intent in word choice and usage, and I believe that we as a society can understand that words have multiple meanings, and that meanings can change over time, especially when people use words in certain contexts that depart from original meaning.

If you are offended by the words "fucking retarded," you're coming from an ignorant place. While it might be difficult to hear, let me take a minute to explain my position and why I believe this to be the case.

Presumably people that get offended by the words "fucking retarded" are offended because they believe that somehow pejoratively it is insulting to individuals that can be described as having "special needs," or being "developmentally disabled," "intellectually disabled," or, more officially, "mentally disabled."

Assuming this is the case, which seems the only likely explanation, if for the last 12 years we have referred to an individual actually described in the above paragraph by 4 different terms, the last of which being the official designation by the U.S. government, and all of those terms are different than the term "fucking retarded," why do people insist that the words "fucking retarded" refer to an individual that is mentally disabled?

Why can't the words "fucking retarded" be defined by its use on the Internet to describe someone who is being willfully ignorant and believes that their ignorance should be extolled on others as though it were a virtue? Why can't we understand that when we use the words "fucking retarded" that we are not describing someone who is mentally disabled, but rather as an insult to describe behavior that displays an absence of logic or rational thought?

As to the choice to get offended by the phrase "fucking retarded," would people have the same reaction if I were to have asked if an individual was a "fucking imbecile?" Would people get upset if instead of using the phrase "fucking retarded" I had replaced it with "fucking moron"?

Both "imbecile" and "moron" both were, at one point, clinical terms to describe an individual which we would now describe as "mentally disabled," but no one bats an eye at someone using either of those two words because no one chooses to understand that they should be offended because of their use.

People are going to choose to be offended by a lot of things--honestly I cannot keep track of it all. What we say today won't be okay to say tomorrow, and I do not believe it is constructive to try to keep a list that shifts with the whims of the masses to determine who gets to speak and who does not, according to the words they use without consideration of the message of what they're saying.

Suffice to say--if you believe that we should silence someone simply because they offend someone else, I'm pretty sure you know how I would describe your belief.

You talk a big game with free speech, but Freedom of speech means nothing without empathy. And I suppose that's what has us devided here. 

You can call me a fucking retard, and I won't care.  Quite frankly, you're probably not wrong. But also note I think you're a fucking retard for bringing this "inconvenience" to light.

Thing is, the consecutive wording of FUCKING RETARD is just about as triggering as any racial or strikingly demeaning insult (like calling a women a cunt or whore). These things aren't said without offending. That doesn't mean that I don't think they can't be said, but I fully understand that they typically come with consequence.

Thank you for the discussion. I apologize if you felt my tone is directed toward you, Bosco. I'm trying to characterize my experience on a more general level and probably failing to tailor my words in a way that might be both persuasive as well as exhibiting empathy.

I think you're right in that I can't disregard people's feelings entirely if my goal is to effectuate communication. However, it's a tough balance to strike, and it becomes increasingly frustrating when people might value one group's feelings while disregarding another.

I disagree with your characterization of "inconvenience." Reddit is a site that I have been using for over a decade, and the decision to stop using the platform was one that was not idly made. I have been observing conversations being stifled on that platform in certain subreddits for the past few years with growing concern, but I was always willing to ignore instances of shutting down conversations with the idea that if you didn't like one subreddit, you could simply create your own and have your own conversations there.

That site now apparently has algorithms searching through user comments in an effort to shut down anyone that might run afoul of people's feelings, and it is very clear that feelings are being emphasized more than communication. It doesn't matter what subreddit you're in--this is a site-wide policy.

Now, you can't just start your own subreddit on that site anymore; you still have to abide by whatever feelgoodery laws popular culture currently understands so you can say the right words to avoid stepping into the verboten.

Anyway, it seems increasingly clear that I am in the minority, but part of my personality is that I tend to be a contrarian to a fault. Nonetheless, it is my hope that people will realize the wider impact of policing speech with the goal of trying to keep people's feelings from being hurt.

No one wins when we get into a competition about who is more offended. Because everyone is offended by everything.

I should have taken in account your previous post about Whoopi's suspension. I see the theme you're going for here, and I'm ultimately on your side.

I still think the reddit thing is a little petty, but I can understand your swelled frustration.

I also commend your passion for being comprehensible and transparent as possible.

damn you russia

I seriously really hope that any of the fans living near Ukraine or in Ukraine are ok right now. Things are really escalating quickly and lets all pray that this doesn't worsen. Let's also be aware of the families and all the civilians that are living during these attacks. So, stay safe all of you Chemical Brothers , sisters and siblings and let's hope this doesn't go to shit.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CaWOTSnMq1F/?utm_medium=share_sheet (in case you want to know what's happening atm)


Zesty

Vladimir Putin is a fucking shithead. That's not news, but it cannot be stated often enough.

Quote from: ThePumisher on Feb 24, 2022, 06:03

damn you russia

Quote from: Zesty on Feb 24, 2022, 06:06

I seriously really hope that any of the fans living near Ukraine or in Ukraine are ok right now. Things are really escalating quickly and lets all pray that this doesn't worsen. Let's also be aware of the families and all the civilians that are living during these attacks. So, stay safe all of you Chemical Brothers , sisters and siblings and let's hope this doesn't go to shit.

Zesty

Quote from: Stefan on Feb 24, 2022, 08:12

Vladimir Putin is a fucking shithead. That's not news, but it cannot be stated often enough.

^seconded
This makes me incredibly angry. Damn, it's 2022, not 1922 - so I thought.

Quote from: Stefan on Feb 24, 2022, 08:12

Vladimir Putin is a fucking shithead. That's not news, but it cannot be stated often enough.

Same for Trump, who is publicly siding with him.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/23/politics/donald-trump-vladimir-putin-joe-biden/index.html

And while we're at it, same for his followers and supporting media outlets...

This is all terrible news.

meanwhile, coverage in America...

https://twitter.com/nuffsaidny/status/1496904803854663680

Absolutely trivial:

Seeing all this talk about the Klitschko brothers preparing to defend Ukraine, reminds me that Tom and Ed met up with Vitali Klitschko (Former Heavyweight boxer and now Mayor of Kyiv), just a couple of years back. Think it was part of a music festival they played... I know there's photos.

Quote from: Bosco on Feb 25, 2022, 19:18

I know there's photos.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bk8i-LNHodx/?hl=en

Quote from: Bosco on Feb 24, 2022, 20:49

meanwhile, coverage in America...

https://twitter.com/nuffsaidny/status/1496904803854663680

I saw this, jfc CNN.  I suppose they could do worse though...

https://www.mediamatters.org/russias-invasion-ukraine/one-most-disgraceful-hours-fox-news-history?fbclid=IwAR38zAgDAGaoV6P79e-q-SxvcgKECVzSG0D4ef5nCJ3zVwbaduFKJCxDufg

"Russian warship, go fuck yourself" may be the quote of 2022.  So sad.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/25/ukraine-soldiers-told-russians-to-go-fuck-yourself-before-black-sea-island-death

Quote from: ThePumisher on Feb 24, 2022, 06:03

damn you russia

I'm really ashamed of the deeds of our president and i can confidently say that most of russians don't want to fight with our neighbours. We are against this war!

Peace to all the innocent ukranian brothers and sisters who are suffering now because of this conflict.
Love is all.

There's a certain amount of this that is unreal, watching the destruction, the lies, and the terrible politics of it all.

My heart goes out to everyone there.

And fuck this war.

Don't ever hate the people, Hate the leader, all the younger people go out and fight battles while the old cower behind a desk throwing children grade insults.

War doesn't only affect us when it's happening, it also affects us years after. My great uncle (biodad's side) lost his life in Vietnam, my dad said grandpa didn't eat for days, bordering starvation. My mom's dad wasn't very open about the American-Korean War but I knew it affected him quite a bit.

Wish we could all sit down, and talk like true Adults, and we don't stop talking until we know we truly worked it out

https://youtu.be/eRl6-bHlz-4

So are we going to have a nuclear war now that Putin puts his nuclear forces on alert? What is wrong with this dude?

Quote from: UltimatePelmeni on Feb 26, 2022, 13:46

I'm really ashamed of the deeds of our president and i can confidently say that most of russians don't want to fight with our neighbours. We are against this war!

Peace to all the innocent ukranian brothers and sisters who are suffering now because of this conflict.
Love is all.

My friends and I were overwhelmed with respect for the Russian people taking to the street in protest, especially knowing how dangerous this can be ANYWHERE, let alone there right now. I can't speak for "the rest of the world", but those of us who are thinkers not only stand with Ukraine, but are also empathetic for those who are victims by association: we know this is not the will of the Russian people. Stay safe.

My brothers and sisters, I love you and am thinking of you especially our siblings in Ukraine 🇺🇦 As well as those who have taken to the streets in Russia to protest against a madman.

Love is all.

Quote from: ThePumisher on Feb 27, 2022, 16:02

So are we going to have a nuclear war now that Putin puts his nuclear forces on alert? What is wrong with this dude?

Maybe this Politico article from Monday will cheer you up? Or maybe not.
'Yes, He Would': Fiona Hill on Putin and Nukes (https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340)
The stuff about Litvinenko - poisoned by Polonium 210, was a BIG story in the UK, but I wonder if it was covered anyywhere else?  "...polonium was spread all around London at every spot that poor man visited", yes, including a shisha cafe in London's Trocadero Centre - a place I had been in more than once - which made me think.  More recently the Skripals poisoned by Novichok (in Salisbury) was also a big story here. Did it get covered elsewhere, I wonder?

And keeping a UK-ish slant on this stuff (I guess that's the media I'm exposed to), it's interesting that the former wife of a Putin minister has donated £2 MILLION to PM Boris Johnson's Tory Party since 2012. Perhaps that's why the UK has gone a little softer with its sanctions than other countries.
Sky News: Lubov Chernukhin's donations (https://news.sky.com/story/russian-tory-donor-previously-married-to-putin-minister-recently-gave-conservatives-80-000-12555719)

Quote from: Wolkenkrabber on Mar 02, 2022, 21:31

Maybe this Politico article from Monday will cheer you up? Or maybe not.

"And he has put Russia's nuclear forces on high alert."

That's a good read, but it won't cheer me up even though it's also not downer.

I've read in a german newspaper something we all may have forgotten about. Can't find the link right now. It says that Russian military as well as US-American military always have nuclear forces on alert, even after the end of the cold war. Both sides always at any time have Submarines and Aircrafts carrying nuclear weapons on patrol, well mostly the Submarines, but anyway. So the danger of an nuclear attack is always present - it's just one single order or one click away. Remember during Cuba crisis were we where just 5 seconds away from a nuclear war because Russia has had a missile detection system failure or something that showed a US nuclear missile flying to Russia and they had the order to immediately start a counterstrike? And it was just one russian soldier who had to push the button but he hasn't because he couldn't believe theres a nuclear missile coming to his country? And he was right, and that results in not starting the nuclear war. But such situations always could come back and at one point maybe theres a soldier with less nerves and an itchy finger. So, coming back with what Putin has said (that he puts his nuclear deterrence forces on high alert) is just a way to let the world know that he is willing to use them if he sees the necessary in - the forces themself have always been on alert. And so are the US forces.
I don't know whats with the other states that have nuclear weapons - UK, France, China, India, Israel & Pakistan, but i don't think that they've need long time to activate them. And then, to make things even more worse or complicated, there's that freak from North Korea...
Still fingers crossed for not having that. Just when you thought it couldn't get any more worse than 2020 & 2021

https://youtu.be/IV4IjHz2yIo

To steal a quote, Fats Domino spinning in his grave right now

Quote from: Bosco on Mar 03, 2022, 21:24

To steal a quote, Fats Domino spinning in his grave right now

:))

Oahn Bloohberree heel.

So are Russian people aware that Russian troops shelled Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant earlier this week? Europe is lucky not to have a readioactive cloud worse than Chernobyl above it right now.
https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-invasion-europes-biggest-nuclear-power-plant-on-fire-after-coming-under-attack-from-russian-troops-12556976

I'm reading that Facebook, twitter, the BBC and other "western" media have been blocked by Russian auttorities. Do VPNs get around the problem? I understand that some Russian media organisations are also closing down:
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/04/media/russia-media-crack-down/index.html

Do Russian people realise the extent of the destruction taking place in Ukraine at the moment, or the threat to European and World peace?
Putin is calling the Ukranian invasion a "military operation" or words to that effect? Well it's a war. Pure and simple.

I guess Putin must really hate the media because even the Press are being shot at:
https://news.sky.com/story/sky-news-teams-harrowing-account-of-their-violent-ambush-in-ukraine-this-week-12557585

Matt Frei (formerly BBC, now UK Channel 4) said something this morning which seemed to be a fair summation:

Quote

The best scenario Russia can hope for is: to the victors a landscape of rubble, a disobedient enraged Ukranian population, economic meltdown at home, pariah status abroad. A very hollow Greater Russia, relying -if lucky- on China. And then what?

Others have asked "where is the 'off-ramp'? How does Putin save face if things don't go well for him?" Ukraine aren't going to become like tamed horses and happily submit to Russia. But how can he pull out now without looking like he lost? So he'll keep going like a psychopathic murderer. Murdering civilians, destroying cities. And for what?

https://twitter.com/HromadskeRadio/status/1500050705108934658
https://twitter.com/globalhlthtwit/status/1500089102368129025
https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1500026179222482946
https://twitter.com/sarahrainsford/status/1499858482060742658
https://twitter.com/BBCRosAtkins/status/1499658290162282496

I see that a Republican US senator, Lindsey Graham asked a couple of days ago "Is there a Brutus in Russia?" That's perhaps an irresponsible thing for a US politician to say. But at the same time, if the news reported tomorrow that someone had bumped off the Agressor-in-Chief, I would probably breathe a sigh of relief (same for the North Korean guy, come to think of it).

When I saw this tweet below a few days ago, I thought it was perhaps a bit patronising. And of course it's easy to encourage others to do the dirty work when you're at a safe distance. But I'm so angry at this gangster currently threatening European and World peace that I'm not sure I care about being polite right now. He's got to go.

https://twitter.com/bmay/status/1498724486597816327

If it's not safe for our Russian forumites to comment, then obviously please don't comment.

Oh, PS a fun one, for some positivity:
https://twitter.com/VeraMBergen/status/1498814410911006723
Tweet Error (does not exist)?  Yes it does.

Quote from: UltimatePelmeni on Feb 26, 2022, 13:46

We are against this war!

UlimatePelmeni, I hope it is not rude to ask, but can you elaborate more on the situation as you see it? I mean, I understand it's not fair to ask you to be our reporter...and maybe you CAN'T discuss in detail....but for this international group, you are on the inside and clearly many of us care and are on the same page.

Is your internet access still "open", and is the media coverage severely different than what you can read? Do you feel most people understand this is an invasion as compared to exercises? Do you guys know your captured troops are confused? Does any support of the state seem to be generational, or is it the tech-savy vs the old fashioned? Are Russian people feeling the affects of international sanctions, or is this information being hidden? An impression I've read is that many Russian people, including troops, are being lied to or don't understand what is happening. It seems that you do and might be able to provide insight.

Can you discuss further without sacrificing your safety and mental health?

You have my full apology if this is inappropriate. You spoke up initially and would have many listeners. I thank you for your time. We are not here to judge you, but to support you while standing against these current actions of your government.

Quote from: Wolkenkrabber on Mar 05, 2022, 22:05

I see that a Republican US senator, Lindsey Graham asked a couple of days ago "Is there a Brutus in Russia?" That's perhaps an irresponsible thing for a US politician to say.

This was hugely irresponsible, and Lindsey Graham is not known for thinking before he speaks. He is also not known for his moral conviction, compassion, or intelligence, as is the same with many in his party. Hell, I'm sure it was painful for some of them and their pundits to openly support Putin and Trump and then have to edit their public opinion because the nation and the world came together in solidarity.

Quote from: satur8 on Mar 07, 2022, 16:38

You have my full apology if this is inappropriate. You spoke up initially and would have many listeners. I thank you for your time. We are not here to judge you, but to support you while standing against these current actions of your government.

People in Russia may have serious problems if they look differently at this situation. So, you won't see many words from me.
Sanctions mostly hit civilians, not government, as many international services, manufacturers and developers left our market.

Thank you all for your support and understanding. Love and peace to all.

Understood.

Your situation is horrible. You have our support here.

Chems' fb post made a caring, concerned, human response to the invasion and it turned to a shitshow real fucking quick.   :(

This bit of news is about a week old at this point but it's nice to switch back and forth between discussions of the Ukraine/Russia conflict with other topics.

UC Hastings is a reasonably renowned law school in San Francisco--I am friends with a significant number of alumni from there.

Last week, a speaker, Ilya Shapiro, was invited to campus to conduct a talk. Due to a tweet that speaker made in January criticizing U.S. President Joe Biden's supreme court nomination, a significant portion of the student body at UC Hastings felt strongly enough to show down the speaker for 45 minutes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IShsW7lPyyM), prohibiting him from speaking.

I couldn't believe this. These were future lawyers that were engaged in this conduct, not college students getting their first glimpse into protest after their first lecture from an introduction to political science class. And no one stopped them.

The school released a statement after the event, ostensibly reminding students that free speech exists, and that students should be respectful of speakers on campus.

19 faculty members signed on to an open letter responding to the school, ostensibly saying that as long as someone has been deemed to have made racist or sexist comments, it is okay to shout a speaker down (https://reason.com/volokh/2022/03/05/u-c-hastings-faculty-send-letter-to-concerned-students/).

If you're wondering why people got so upset in the first place, you can read about it here (https://legalinsurrection.com/2022/01/profile-in-cowardice-georgetown-law-dean-bill-treanor-suspends-conservative-legal-scholar-ilya-shapiro/).

Obviously, I think this is awful and the students who engaged in that "protest," the school, and certainly the 19 professors who signed on to that ridiculous letter should be ashamed of themselves.

Tbh, to me a lot of the complaining around free speech and cancel culture reads like somebody (most likely a white male), usually in some position of power, wants to be able to say stupid stuff publicly and not face any consequences for it, like it has been for most of history.

Not surprised that the author is ostensibly pro-Trump, to the point of having written an pre-emptive blog post circulating election fraud conspiracy theories implying mail-in ballots are rigged.

Yeah, you only need to hear what comedians say about campus gigs to understand how depressingly toxic that environment has become.

We should engage with people who have different opinion - not shout them down.

Quote from: Stefan on Mar 11, 2022, 20:21

Tbh, to me a lot of the complaining around free speech and cancel culture reads like somebody (most likely a white male), usually in some position of power, wants to be able to say stupid stuff publicly and not face any consequences for it, like it has been for most of history.

Not surprised that the author is ostensibly pro-Trump, to the point of having written an pre-emptive blog post circulating election fraud conspiracy theories implying mail-in ballots are rigged.

I certainly agree with you Steven--it's very important to understand how our differences have created different obstacles for us to overcome, and the discussion in helping one another overcome said obstacles carries merit.

What would have been great is to have the students here discuss that topic and how it relates to their own positions as students in order to help the speaker better understand where they were coming from.

What happened here was nothing constructive. Everyone understood what people thought about that speaker's tweet--it was well-discussed. At worst, it kept people who might have disagreed with the students from perhaps gaining a greater insight into their own potential biases.

Quote from: sandelic on Mar 12, 2022, 03:50

Yeah, you only need to hear what comedians say about campus gigs to understand how depressingly toxic that environment has become.

We should engage with people who have different opinion - not shout them down.

Agreed, with exception of white supremacists or nazis.  They should NEVER be given a platform and cannot be reasoned with. 

Brave woman.

https://twitter.com/franakviacorka/status/1503445302119968769

https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1503457457393352706

All the fake patriots and pseudo-victims of free speech around the world should be ashamed of themselves and take a hard look at this truely brave woman (and probably her co-workers too) who actually did something so courageous despite facing real and dire consequences for herself and maybe her family. These fake patriots with their staged victimhood could never ever fathom what it would really mean to be brave living in a truely oppressing system.

Quote from: ThePumisher on Feb 24, 2022, 06:03

damn you russia

You cannot damn the whole country.
All Russians are not just our government.

Quote from: Wolkenkrabber on Mar 05, 2022, 22:05

Tweet Error (does not exist)?  Yes it does.

Twitter, Facebook and Instagram is blocked in RU.
That is why the content of these social networks is not embedded in this forum at this time.

The ChemBase Forum is located.. in Russia.. and has always been.. all the seven years of this project, started by a couple of enthusiasts.
All expenses, all legal subtleties, the maintenance and security of this resource have always been on one person only.

There has always been freedom of expression, and still is.
The only thing I ask is to observe the limits of decency and morality.

The political and economic situation may be much more complicated than you think or as you read in the news.
Just ask how many of you have ever been to Russia or Ukraine? How many of you have relatives in one and the other country?

Citizens of both countries have relatives on both sides.

No more comments from me...

Quote from: Explud on Mar 15, 2022, 22:36

Twitter, Facebook and Instagram is blocked in RU.
That is why the content of these social networks is not embedded in this forum at this time.

Actually the majority of tweets are embedding just fine, from my stand point.  When I made my comment about embedding a few days ago, I think Firefox (or my PC?) was struggling with so many embedded tweets (from me!). Are you able to see them at all (perhaps despite the blocking in RU)?

The last tweet I posted/embedded above yesterday indeed features someone who is half Ukranian, half Russian.

Thanks for providing the forum, Explud.

Quote from: Explud on Mar 15, 2022, 22:36

You cannot damn the whole country.
All Russians are not just our government.

I guess I speak for the majority when I say it's never been about the people of Russia rather than, you know, the ones running it. It should never be meant as a generalization. We are all just human beings irrespective of where we're born or live. It's not easy and even hard for you guys as well.
I've watched a couple of intersting videos from a Russian vlogger who apparently does street interviews (not representative of course) and the insights from what is and especially isn't said is enlightening and gave me a glimpse into what it might be like currently. My heart goes out to you, too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edyptyXmld8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2TGvndDcxE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yKJFysG2i0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoXem8VtgPA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N917eVPyD4

Quote from: Explud on Mar 15, 2022, 22:36

You cannot damn the whole country.
All Russians are not just our government.

Explud, you are absolutely correct. 

I didn't realize you are also in Russia but I've recently commented that Russian citizens are also victims in all of this, in numerous ways. For what its worth, I express this to some American colleagues as it comes up. I'm not sure why people don't understand the big picture ramifications for all sides, or why communicating the suffering (and fear) the Russian people are facing is somehow associated with a lack of support for Ukraine. And, of course, it's not all of them, but many Americans are not generally known for their intelligence, empathy for anyone other than themselves, or understanding of history, politics, or foreign affairs, yet they always seem to have the loudest opinion in these areas.

We stand with all of our brothers and sisters who suffer at the hands of those with power and wealth and the greed that blinds them to human life, be it in Ukraine, Russia, or in our own homelands.


On a different note...I had no idea the forum was hosted in Russia. I'm glad you guys still have this connection. If there is information you need provided, find a way to let us know and I'm sure we can work together to help.

Quote from: Explud on Mar 15, 2022, 22:36

Just ask how many of you have ever been to Russia or Ukraine? How many of you have relatives in one and the other country?

For the sake of our Russian forumites who may have their news/internet limited.
This appears to be an issue that may go beyond Russia and Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1505835864953434113

The above tweet is from Guy Verhofstadt, former Prime Minister of Belgium and currently a prominent MEP in the EU. It is dated today. It reads:

Quote

80% of Mariupol is destroyed. Putin wants it to choke the rest of Ukraine to death. If he succeeds, Eastern Europe is next...

Short of military engagement we must do everything to stop him... while we still have a chance...

Full sanctions now !

Poland, Hungary and Bulgaria are all part of NATO. If Putin goes for them, we have big trouble. And by "we", I mean Europe and the world. All three are also members of the EU incidentally.

My brother is spearheading an effort through an organization to help get Ukranian civilians out of Ukraine.

https://fundrazr.com/ukrainefreedomproject?ref=ab_0B7RK8_ab_0WcE8WBcoTe0WcE8WBcoTe

He literally traveled to Ukraine and rented an apartment there to help get people out 5 days after the war started.

If any of you are able to donate, by all means.

It's hard to know which I feel more strongly, my sorrow for the loss of actual innocent life on such a large scale, or the shame I feel for how a large percentage of individuals in my country choose to discuss such a tragedy.

For anyone who hasn't heard the news of America's most recent tragedy, 19 schoolchildren in a small town in the state of Texas were shot and killed, along with two of their teachers, at school. The shooter was an 18 year-old male, clearly with mental health issues, who also went to the school.

America has a special kind of ignorance. Somehow people believe that abortion is evil, and they support passage of laws restricting or outright banning abortion--indeed, Texas has such laws, albeit currently under constitutional scrutiny--but at the same time they decry yesterday's tragedy as evil, and say that "we cannot legislate against evil."

I don't know how to even start a discussion about what to do--topics of gun control lead to a response that regulation of guns is never effective. Discussions of responsible gun ownership lead to a response that there is an infringement of a constitutional right.

And then discussing that constitutional right, let's take a look at numero dos on the list of U.S. Constitutional Amendments:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

If you read that backward, that's how we arrive at our current interpretation of whether or not individuals in the U.S. should be allowed to own a gun. What I mean is--even though there is a clear emphasis on maintaining a Militia for the United States (there was no standing army for the United States when the 2nd Amendment was drafted), this foundational purpose is construed as a byproduct of the latter mention of an individual right to bear Arms.

My suspicion is that real change will only come if we see a large-scale tragedy happen involving the "right" group of people (read: a school full of white children in Texas instead of Mexican ones). I wish I were joking.

Until then, we get to hear about what the real problem was--the teachers didn't have guns with them in the classroom to shoot back.

Quote from: MadPooter on May 25, 2022, 22:16

topics of gun control lead to a response that regulation of guns is never effective.

But regulation *is* effective (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-1996-dunblane-massacre-pushed-uk-enact-stricter-gun-laws-180977221/). Do the gun people not realise how high gun deaths are in America compared to say, Europe where gun ownership/availablility is less common?

Quote from: MadPooter on May 25, 2022, 22:16

Until then, we get to hear about what the real problem was--the teachers didn't have guns with them in the classroom to shoot back.

Everyone has to have a gun to defend themselves from everyone else with a gun. And so it spirals...

Tim Burgess was tweeting about this stuff earlier:

https://twitter.com/Tim_Burgess/status/1529531147432108032
https://twitter.com/Tim_Burgess/status/1529532786738094083

Also:

https://twitter.com/EoinHiggins_/status/1529483504857251844

I still remember, from my first trip to the US, from my hotel I had a view directly at a 7-days-a-week Guns&Ammo Superstore. And, from my first visit to to a Walmart, Guns at sale there.
As a European living in a country with reasonable firearm regulations, the US culture around them seems just bizarre and insane.
I'm not surprised that these horrific crimes happen again and again.
What I don't get is that everytime, when the (usually Republican) lawmaker doorknobs fart out their bigoted "it's not about gun control but about mental health, thoughts and prayers blah blah blah" it isn't immediately followed up by the question "Ok, so what are your proposed solutions to this mental health crisis?", or, even better, just ask them why they oppose literally every and any attempt to make (mental) healthcare more accessible and affordable.
It's not entirely wrong that the problem in the US is not *just* about gun control, as due to a variety and combination of biological and social factors, there will probably always exist people who resort to violence as a "solution" to their problems. However, having easy access to tools that are specifically made to inflict as much damage as possible in the shortest amount of time with the least effort make all of the problems exponentially worse. And in that sense it is exaclty about gun control, and it is the easiest issue to solve here.

Quote from: MadPooter on May 25, 2022, 22:16

My suspicion is that real change will only come if we see a large-scale tragedy happen involving the "right" group of people (read: a school full of white children in Texas instead of Mexican ones). I wish I were joking.

Sandy Hook. It changed absolutely zilch. Then, (at the latest) many politicians decided that to them, the lives of children are worth less than the millions of donations they receive from the NRA.

Quote from: Stefan on May 26, 2022, 19:23

Sandy Hook. It changed absolutely zilch. Then, (at the latest) many politicians decided that to them, the lives of children are worth less than the millions of donations they receive from the NRA.

My take on this is that 2nd amendment advocates in the United States largely fall on the right, and human beings (especially ones in the United States it seems) only seem to respond with empathy when there is something that directly affects them.

Unfortunately, I think that a lot of people on the right dismissed the Sandy Hook tragedy because it happened in a blue state (Connecticut), and they were likely to even, on some level, disregard the harm to that particular community because they probably thought they were simply ill-prepared, or worse that they somehow deserved it because of their political beliefs.

There are some serious divides and willful separations from the people on the right I have interacted with, and my perspective comes from a combination of that and a general understanding that human beings are tribal in nature and tend to look inward to their own kind when it comes to policy decisions.

If the Texas massacre happened in a primarily white community, real change might occur. I can understand disagreement, but that's my opinion at this point.

Quote from: Bosco on May 31, 2022, 17:25

Yeah, this has to be a bit disheartening for Russian fans. I don't even know, are residents allowed to leave the country at this point?

There were no restrictions on our part.
The whole problem is in flights. They are possible with transfers through "friendly countries", it is very expensive. And of course many countries do not give visas.

Quote from: Wolkenkrabber on May 26, 2022, 01:32

But regulation *is* effective. Do the gun people not realise how high gun deaths are in America compared to say, Europe where gun ownership/availablility is less common?

Well...we tell them. The news tells them. The info is there. They just shout it down as if it is an imaginary talking point, and then circle back with a misunderstanding of words as they are written. And American news media is ridiculously polarized, with a great deal of people believing the  propaganda machine that fuels the ant-science/anti-data nationalistic hate in which they find pride and identity. It's not even 'news', but we have laws that don't hold news agencies to journalistic integrity. What's worse is there is also a hypocritical association to Christianity surrounding it all, not unlike the horrors of the Crusades. Many call themselves pro-life on religious basis, but they couldn't be further from it: they will deny women healthcare regardless of scenario, deny childcare and parental assistance once young women are forced to have babies, deny socialized healthcare despite its global success, deny critical race theory that will educate people on their differences and disadvantages, deny assistance programs for the underprivileged, deny any regulation that will slow the climate crisis, and of course, deny any conversation of even minor compromise on gun control despite children being slaughtered. And they do this while celebrating unregulated guns, worship of the rich, and general denial of facts, empathy, or reality in the name of their religion. It is sickening, and they truly believe this is the greatest nation on Earth, and solely because of people like them. Of course, they're not the majority, but they're the loudest, and year after year their politicians are limiting voting rights and stacking courts while the other side does nothing, ensuring it will continue to get worse.

And one more thing. Some of these people would welcome a police state, as long as the police know that they're the "white good guys". Our police are surprisingly militarized and generally overfunded, but when they are needed, they are often on the wrong side of history. Be it killing black men begging for their lives in front of cameras or standing around outside an active shooting, terrified of the gunman as children were bleeding out, fighting parents instead of saving kids, these 'blue lives matter 'police forces seem to have the unquestioned support of the bootlickers. And it goes both ways when shit goes down.

I implore all of you to research how the police mishandled this school shooting. Be warned: it is horrific. I cried multiple times at my job as more and more information was released. They messed up so many things and were responsible for deaths, not saving lives. But rest assured, they were well armed and well funded with the support of the local municipalities.

So yeah, we in America talk about gun regulation, recurring massacres, and common sense policy frequently and loudly. But the money is with the NRA and Congress, as is the misinformation machine, and they are all more powerful than our stupid little facts and lives.

But don't ya know, we're the greatest goddmaned country on the planet you stupid foreigners! (For my friends who speak English as a second language, that was sarcasm. It is probably obvious, but if not, I LOVE the global community and wish my countrymen understood thay have a lot to learn.)

Great cheekbones, but I prefer Anfisa Letyago

https://twitter.com/andrewrchow/status/1527718399324868609

Clone Distribution statement. (https://clone.nl/blog/trip/)

Quote from: Wolkenkrabber on Jun 02, 2022, 10:51

Clone Distribution statement.

What a fucking tons of shit is described on this page.

Quote from: satur8 on Jun 01, 2022, 17:11

Well...we tell them. The news tells them. The info is there. They just shout it down as if it is an imaginary talking point, and then circle back with a misunderstanding of words as they are written. And American news media is ridiculously polarized...

Thank you satur8 for taking the time to say what you did. The horrific tragedy in Texas still haunts and outrages me. Every new detail that emerges rips the bandaid off the hemorrhaging wound.  With everything else going on, the world feels like it's been upside down lately. There was a mass shooting at a church that I lived 2 miles down the road from for several years, right after their Buffalo shooting. And there was another shooting today in Tulsa. I wish I knew what will finally bring common sense change and regulation. 

There are some real issues here in America. Guns seem to be great for our kids and society. And don't even get me started on single payer healthcare and mental healthcare. But today, specifically women's healthcare and subsequent social nets are focal issues as we force them to reproduce. It's all driven by forcing extreme religion into political rights, and yet we HATE when the middle east does that.

This is all because that last imbecile stacked the courts...and the opposition rolled over and let him.

https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/roe-wade-abortion-supreme-court-ruling/index.html

To be honest, that was far from surprising. In those senate hearings, I can't remember anyone being absolutely clear on their standing towards Row v. Wade. They all beat around the bush and used vague language to veil their true attitudes.

And btw, it's not just big orange Tumble who's responsible for this situation. First and foremost the blame has to go to Moscow Mitch who changed his attitude towards SC nominations anytime it served his political needs. One time you can't nominate successors during an Election year, another time, when it's your turn, all of that is forgotten.
The GOP has lost it's effing mind.

And today, in New York, the state SC turned over its 100 year old precedent restricting carrying guns openly.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/24/us/state-gun-laws-permits.html

The USA is on a severe retrogressive course.

I was waiting for this to happen ever since Obama's presidency.
When republicans managed to stall his choice for supreme court, it was obvious how things will roll.

The United States has some backward-ass logic going on.

Framing the abortion discussion as a "moral issue" without expanding on the analysis that what is really being discussed is applying religious morals to this issue is, to say the least, absolutely disingenuous.

What I read in the supreme court decision is a carefully-crafted sidestep. Somehow, this entire issue is framed from a religious/moral perspective without actually discussing the foundational basis for it.

No joke: The rationale for the 2nd Amendment is to allow people to have, at all times, the opportunity to rise up against the government and take it by force if necessary. See: Militia.

But somehow we're supposed to accept imposition of religious will in a state legislature if they so choose.

Among comparable wealthy countries, the U.S. has
the highest infant mortality rate (https://www.americashealthrankings.org/learn/reports/2019-annual-report/international-comparison)
the highest maternal mortality rate (https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2020/nov/maternal-mortality-maternity-care-us-compared-10-countries)
the highest child poverty rate. (https://confrontingpoverty.org/poverty-facts-and-myths/americas-poor-are-worse-off-than-elsewhere/)

The so-called "Pro-Life" GOP has been central in causing and aggrevating all of these issues, with working against accessable healthcare and adequate social security every step of the way. With their stance on abortion, this means: We'll force you to carry to term, from then on fuck you, you're on your own. It's forced birth, not pro-life.

The politicians of the GOP are not dumb. Just as with gun control, they know people will suffer and die from their actions. They just don't care. They don't give a single shit about anybody's life.
What they do care about, however, is staying in power, and their idea of power is white, fundamental Christian/Evangelical and patriarchal. In their worldview, a womens right to choose is simply a threat to their power.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 24, 2022, 18:58

No joke: The rationale for the 2nd Amendment is to allow people to have, at all times, the opportunity to rise up against the government and take it by force if necessary. See: Militia.

https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/1540447284906835969

Quote from: Stefan on Jun 24, 2022, 19:38

The politicians of the GOP are not dumb... In their worldview, a womens right to choose is simply a threat to their power.

Mm, interesting point.


*EDIT*

Oh god, I've just seen this.

https://twitter.com/jkbibliophile/status/1540345161955385345

https://twitter.com/peterra40855142/status/1540360525816668163

https://twitter.com/gautham_t/status/1540430542310612998

"It's not a war, it's a Special Military Operation"

https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1541429159792197632

https://twitter.com/olliecarroll/status/1541428084305498114

https://twitter.com/lapatina_/status/1541430640591228930

EDIT
https://twitter.com/BNNBreaking/status/1541438899159183361
(thread of tweets includes footage from inside the mall)

Quote from: sandelic on Jun 24, 2022, 17:35

I was waiting for this to happen ever since Obama's presidency.
When republicans managed to stall his choice for supreme court, it was obvious how things will roll.

And yet, so many Americans didn't see it or didn't care. Just like they didn't see it when Trump got 3 seats in, two of which were clearly nutjobs, all of which were forced in with partisan power and little pushback from the other side, and one of which was stolen, as you mentioned. And many Americans still don't see it as a problem today that the Supreme Court is ruling based on religious agenda, or the fact that 5 out of 9 sitting Supreme Court Justices have lifelong appointments from Presidents who LOST the popular vote.


But ask most Americans, and they'll make sure you know this is "the greatest country on Earth". Yee-Fucking-Haw. And somehow the majority remains powerless to stop this craziness.

Quote from: ThePumisher on Jul 11, 2022, 11:06

Quote from: Bosco on Jul 11, 2022, 04:20

Qatar World Cup coming up this late autumn, we doing a friendly World Cup pool on here or what?

I not going to watch any of these games and i cannot understand why any team is going to this tournament...

Not saying the human rights issue are something to gloss over, but us 1st worlders are pretty fucking full of shit to sit here and condemn a burgeoning country with all the blood that's on our hands. If we are pulling the plug now, why haven't we done time and time before when these issues around the world arise.

Don't mind me Pumisher, noble pursuit on your part. I'm mostly spineless.

https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1569070513909022720

1:19 to 1:22 "Zalenskys Nazi regime".
Do Russians think Zalensky wants to annexe Poland and gas the jews? He's a former comedian FFS!

Ukraine does have some far right groups who cause problems but so does Russia (https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/if-russia-serious-about-de-nazification-it-should-start-home)!

The guy from 5:18 to about 6:12 seems to make some sense: "we should be talking to the Ukranians...and tell them how their future will look with Russia. Telling them that they don't exist will only cause them to reject us".

It's certainly true that people dont like being told that they're a member of an organisation they didn't want to join. Norway doesn't want to be a full member of the EU, so you can't force them to join. Imagine if the EU invaded Norway, calling it a "special military operation". Would the EU say: "Well, they're European and some other Scandanavian countries are EU members so this is a matter for the EU, it's not for others to comment or get involved" Imagine!
(yes I know, there isn't an EU army).

The bit at the very end:
"so my 10 year old kids..."
"will eventually get the chance to fight, right?"

I want to know what was said in reply. Did any Russian forumites see this?

Also the last few seconds of this clip are interesting
"Stalin...called for the ones who panic to be shot"  :-[
https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1568310989149605888

https://twitter.com/jonsopel/status/1586207925445750785

Hmmm.

Also, I did not know this:
https://twitter.com/JessicaLBurbank/status/1586013006923603969

This is the piece to read about Musks twitter acquisition:
https://www.theverge.com/2022/10/28/23428132/elon-musk-twitter-acquisition-problems-speech-moderation

I can only hope that he looses as much money as possible and that twitter somehow survives without all the cool people leaving.

Cool people? I don't know. Seems more like a platform for grandstanders, loudmouths, blowhards and full-of-themselves and all sorts of nasty people.
Elon Musk will probably soon find out that his "vision" of being an opinion abolutist won't work and reality is very likely going to put a spoke in his Twesla wheel, so to speak. He won't be able to not moderate the platform and people that are now prasing this guy as the second coming of Free Speech Jesus are going to have a hard awakening and be pissed.

Elon Musk and people like him is/are just the best example that lots of money can't buy you character.

There's certainly a lot of great people who write great and interesting content there.
One thing I love, for instance, is the many scientists writing about their field, so that, if you follow the right people, you can hear some of the chit-chat and banter from experts about topics you're interested in.

Seriously, what is wrong with (45% of) this country? I'm so fucking sad looking at this.

(https://i.postimg.cc/XNQ32F8j/Screen-Shot-2022-11-08-at-21-22-04.png)

Quote from: Stefan on Oct 30, 2022, 13:31

There's certainly a lot of great people who write great and interesting content there.
One thing I love, for instance, is the many scientists writing about their field, so that, if you follow the right people, you can hear some of the chit-chat and banter from experts about topics you're interested in.

Of course there are decent people, too, and I know my statement was generalizing. I also admit to be lurking every now and then (would never open an account though). But reality shows, that often the loudmouths and blowhards get the most attention and shitstorms of any kind are generated by a handful of folks compated to the vast majority of non-users, blown fully out of proportion due to media coverage.

Quote from: Enjoyed on Nov 09, 2022, 05:25

Seriously, what is wrong with (45% of) this country? I'm so fucking sad looking at this.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XNQ32F8j/Screen-Shot-2022-11-08-at-21-22-04.png)

Was this a twitter poll? If so, you can sleep better knowing that these are hardly representative. Just a subset of a portion of society that's on a social platform. They usually mean jack. It's like MAGA folks who measure their influence by the crowd size of their rallys or the number of likes on social media, forgetting that the vast majority of people couldn't care less about spending time at a political rally or on social platforms.

Quote from: Enjoyed on Nov 09, 2022, 05:25

Seriously, what is wrong with (45% of) this country? I'm so fucking sad looking at this.

(https://i.postimg.cc/XNQ32F8j/Screen-Shot-2022-11-08-at-21-22-04.png)

:o

This is a real measure on the recent ballot. With 64% of votes counted, there are currently 45.7% of Oregonians who are bat shit fucking crazy.

Ah, I see. Well, yeah, that's batsh*t crazy. It's probably a tribal thing and the measure was introduced by Democrats, and that can't surely be something good in some minds. "They want to take something aways from us, it's history!".
This is what the Republican party has been quite successful in, especially under the former president, to emotionalize everything and distort facts beyond recognition and under no circumstance address the real substance of a matter.

I watched Jordan Klepper's "Fingers the midterms" last night, and this was, again, quite revealing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttCZZ-w3BMg

There was a great comment that summarized it perfectly:

Quote

As Jordan has demonstrated time after time, you can walk these people down a logical path, where they agree with everything until the conclusion. Then they jump off the path and express an opinion completely opposite of what they were just agreeing to. [...]

Quote from: Csar on Nov 09, 2022, 18:34

This is what the Republican party has been quite successful in, especially under the former president, to emotionalize everything and distort facts beyond recognition and under no circumstance address the real substance of a matter.

The same can be said about the Left's approach to identity politics (racism, gender issues, sexism).

Quote from: Enjoyed on Nov 09, 2022, 05:25

Seriously, what is wrong with (45% of) this country? I'm so fucking sad looking at this.

(https://i.postimg.cc/XNQ32F8j/Screen-Shot-2022-11-08-at-21-22-04.png)

Batshit!
Well if you don't like it you could always "go home" (as a couple of Brexiteers have said to me). Things are clearly far more restrained and reasonable in the UK at the mo.

Oh, hang on
https://twitter.com/premnsikka/status/1577559323957284864

(for those not following the story, the UK has agreed a deal with Rwanda where Asylum Seekers arriving in the UK get flown to Rwanda for "processing"...and left there. Or at least that's the plan/"dream"). I would suggest that Suella is the kind of person who likes to pull the ladder up behind her.

The Right are quite good at blaming problems on foreigners! The Tories have been in power for 12 (twelve!) years. Things are shit? Point at the foreigners.
https://twitter.com/theRealRayThomp/status/1587174206059560960

https://twitter.com/maitlis/status/1587164254720999427

Ahh the irony of Brexiteers voting for less foreigners...

https://rumble.com/v1xbl8g-the-medias-deranged-hysteria-over-elon-musks-restoration-of-free-speech.html

If people really wanted to deal with that hateful bullshit, rumble, parlor, truth social, the chans, etc. would not only be more popular, but also they would have experienced and capable tech people wanting to deal with that kind of bullshit as well. On a related note, knowing that 8kun has become almost constantly an unusable forum recently due to spam and hackers makes me very happy.

JFC, Trump loses like one election and now he calls for the constitution to be terminated. Men are clearly too emotional to handle politics.

But don't worry, in 2024 the right will unite behind DeSantis, who is just the same authoritarian white nationalist, but ~respectable~. Can't wait for all the so-called concervatives who, for years, drooled over Trumps incoherent blabber, to rejoice that finally, the GOP will be ~respectable~ again.

Quote from: Stefan on Dec 05, 2022, 22:26

JFC, Trump looses like one election and now he calls for the constitution to be terminated. Men are clearly too emotional to handle politics.

Oh no no! Read his newest intellectual outpour. His words were all just twisted by the fake news media!!11eleven!!
I'm currently reading tweets from right wingers who either really want to believe that or claiming he's playing 4D chess or saying it only to piss off the other side, aka gaslighting. It's both hilarious and sad at the same time.

At least one silver lining emerged last week. Kari Lake, the failed Arizonan Governor hopeful and election results denier, not only lost her case  (which was ruled on in August) where she sought an injuction to suspend "electronic voting systems" for the midterms. In that lawsuit, among other things, her team demanded, Arizona needed to use paper ballots - you know, the thing they already use (duh).
Last week, for good measure, her lawyers got sanctioned, too, because they knowlingly brought a frivolous lawsuit - a ruling that is relatively rare. They will now have to pay the legal fees of the Arizonan election board.
And boy, did they get whacked in that ruling:

Quote

The Court has already concluded that Plaintiffs' claims are frivolous in that they are
"both baseless and made without a reasonable and competent inquiry." Townsend, 929 F.2d
at 1362. It further agrees with Defendants that under the circumstances, it was objectively
unreasonable and vexatious for Plaintiffs' counsel to initiate additional, time- and resource-
intensive preliminary injunction proceedings based on frivolous claims and to continue
making false and misleading representations about Arizona elections. The remaining
question under Section 1927 is whether Plaintiffs' counsel acted recklessly or in bad faith.
See Blixseth, 796 F.3d at 1008. The Court concludes they did.
[...]
Imposing sanctions in this case is not to ignore the importance of putting in place
procedures to ensure that our elections are secure and reliable. It is to make clear that the
Court will not condone litigants ignoring the steps that Arizona has already taken toward
this end and furthering false narratives that baselessly undermine public trust at a time of
increasing disinformation about, and distrust in, the democratic process. It is to send a
message to those who might file similarly baseless suits in the future.
Kari Lake vs. Katie Hobbs (https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.azd.1294569/gov.uscourts.azd.1294569.106.0_2.pdf)

How's that free speech going Elon?

https://twitter.com/kattenbarge/status/1603556103459143682

https://twitter.com/ZaleskiLuke/status/1603558566954405889

https://twitter.com/OTCeIIy/status/1603554761776693250

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FkD7HhKWYAAVrXb?format=jpg&name=900x900)

It becomes more and more evident to me that Elon is an overrated asshole, suffering immensely from the Dunning-Kruger-effect and an fragile ego. When you watch his many presentations, you'll notice that he actually comes across as pretty shy and a bit insecure in person. But on TW, he can let it all out. Being a rich person who has that genius myth going for him certainly helps getting attention and even admiration being the nasty master-troll.
But more importantly, he most probably is doing all of this stuff to keep spinning the publicity wheel so TW stays in the news cycle. He's also figured out that the right-wing nutjobs are the most profitable and gullible customer he can appeal to so he's pandering to them by setting the troll-level to max. TW desperately needs money.

Btw, I wonder what Donie O'Sullivan might have said that pissed him off. The journalist seemed to be a rather matter-of-fact guy.

Man. People are really freaking out about Elon Musk. A lot.

For the record--looks like the recent Twitter drama was a one-day suspension for journalists that re-tweeted links to a Twitter account that was Tweeting the realtime location of Elon Musk's personal jet, violating Twitter's anti-doxxing policy.

There is some debate about whether or not the owner of said Twitter account was using publicly available data, but it seems like the user was using *more* than just publicly available data.

Even still, the one-day suspensions weren't because journalists were being critical of Musk, which seems to be somehow an implicit suggestion in the conversation, even though it's patently false.

Also for the record--a stalker was trying to harass Elon Musk recently by blocking his car and jumping on the hood. Elon Musk wasn't in said car, but Musk's infant son was.

It's shocking how people were silent when, prior to Musk's ownership, Twitter was banning users for tweeting their opinions, arguably not even violating Twitter's TOS.

So all of a sudden people give a shit about free speech, and they can't even get the facts straight to complain about journalists not being able to tweet for a day after violating Twitter's TOS.

Every single voice complaining about Elon Musk was silent when the platform was engaged in outright censorship of voices based on Leftist ideals.

I think Elon Musk is clearly an asshole, and he's said some pretty stupid things in the past.

I think the suspensions of the Twitter accounts *linking* to another Twitter account were questionable, but I do understand he was reacting out of concern for his family's safety.

But at the end of the day, what I'm seeing is people just wanting any reason to hate Elon Musk.

The folks decrying Musk as a hypocrite are themselves hypocrites--if they weren't, we would have seen a lot more people outraged at prior bans on Twitter of Twitter accounts simply posting opinions others disagreed with. And as people know, of course, those bans prior to Musk's ownership were permanent.

Quick follow up.

If you actually care about journalists being silenced, you should follow this story:

https://nypost.com/2022/12/16/nbc-suspends-ben-collins-for-mocking-elon-musk-on-twitter/

The short of it is that an NBC News reporter, Ben Collins, was prohibited by NBC from further coverage of Elon Musk on the air due to Collins' tweets of Elon Musk, which were highly critical.

Note that Ben Collins' Twitter account was never suspended, and in fact Collins continues to tweet after the action from NBC.

https://twitter.com/oneunderscore__

You're forgetting that before Elon you did not have a face to rage against, just some unknown twitter employee.
Now you do, it's him. 
Btw, if those journalists did anything illegal, I'm sure authorities would be involved. 

Well, it's because he basically *is* the company now. Before he took over, content moderation was done by teams according to internal guidelines, not the antics of a billionaire with the  impulse control and moral compass of a 14year old edgelord (https://donmoynihan.substack.com/p/elon-musk-and-all-the-conspiracy).

Regarding the stalker incident, apparently it was distressing enough to make a public outcry on Twitter and throw overboard his own principles he's so proud of (https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1589414958508691456), but not distressing enough to report it to the police (https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-12-15/elon-musks-stalker-incident-no-police-report-lapd-says), even though they could easily identify the person given that Musk has their license plates (https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/12/16/elon-musk-jet-stalker/).

Quote from: MadPooter on Dec 17, 2022, 09:21

The folks decrying Musk as a hypocrite are themselves hypocrites--if they weren't, we would have seen a lot more people outraged at prior bans on Twitter of Twitter accounts simply posting opinions others disagreed with. And as people know, of course, those bans prior to Musk's ownership were permanent.

Yeah, because the bans for people who peddled unhinged conspiracy narratives that resulted in a violent insurrection (Trump&his cronies), profiting from harassing the victims of a terrible shooting (Alex Jones) or misoginy/sexuall harassment (Andrew Tate) (just to name a few examples),  is totally the same as *checks notes* a college student posting public flight tracker data and journalists covering Musks reaction to it. Totally the same thing. Free Speech!

But let's see how serious Musk is with his concerns for releasing private information that could potentially harm somebody when a journalist or activist covering white supremacy/right wing extremist actions gets doxxed. You know, usually somebody not protected by immense wealth, living in a fortified gated community and able to afford round-the-clock security.  I wouldn't hold my breath  (https://twitter.com/GabeHoff/status/1603820718084481025).

Quote from: Csar on Dec 16, 2022, 11:41

But more importantly, he most probably is doing all of this stuff to keep spinning the publicity wheel so TW stays in the news cycle. He's also figured out that the right-wing nutjobs are the most profitable and gullible customer he can appeal to so he's pandering to them by setting the troll-level to max. TW desperately needs money.

I disagree here, I think that Musk himself is a right-wing nutjob¹. He fully bought into the silly narrative of cancel culture², that silicon valley tech companies and mainstream media are all run by leftists, there are good indications that this directly played a role in his decision to buy Twitter in the first place (https://www.businessinsider.in/tech/news/axel-springer-ceo-mathias-dpfner-texted-elon-musk-urging-him-to-buy-twitter-days-before-musks-stake-in-the-company-became-public-will-be-fun-dpfner-wrote-/articleshow/94542555.cms). Because clearly, if you look at all the shit that is going on in the world, apparently the most pressing issue is Neo-Nazis not (https://dailymontanan.com/2022/12/06/twitter-reinstates-neo-nazi-publisher-who-targeted-whitefish-jewish-community/) having enough of a platform (https://www.businessinsider.com/twitter-reinstates-account-far-right-troll-baked-alaska-2022-12). Again, free speech, hooray!

[1]He might not realise this himself. People who proudly state that they are neither right nor left are usually firmly on the right.

[2]Which, upon closer inspection, usually is just privileged people not being able to deal with the consequences of their shitty actions.

Quote from: Stefan on Dec 17, 2022, 15:48

I disagree here, I think that Musk himself is a right-wing nutjob¹. He fully bought into the silly narrative of cancel culture², that silicon valley tech companies and mainstream media are all run by leftists, there are good indications that this directly played a role in his decision to buy Twitter in the first place (https://www.businessinsider.in/tech/news/axel-springer-ceo-mathias-dpfner-texted-elon-musk-urging-him-to-buy-twitter-days-before-musks-stake-in-the-company-became-public-will-be-fun-dpfner-wrote-/articleshow/94542555.cms). Because clearly, if you look at all the shit that is going on in the world, apparently the most pressing issue is Neo-Nazis not (https://dailymontanan.com/2022/12/06/twitter-reinstates-neo-nazi-publisher-who-targeted-whitefish-jewish-community/) having enough of a platform (https://www.businessinsider.com/twitter-reinstates-account-far-right-troll-baked-alaska-2022-12). Again, free speech, hooray!

[1]He might not realise this himself. People who proudly state that they are neither right nor left are usually firmly on the right.

[2]Which, upon closer inspection, usually is just privileged people not being able to deal with the consequences of their shitty actions.

Perhaps you liked Twitter better when the United States government had enforcement agencies working with Twitter to censor speech?

https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1603857534737072128

You seem to enjoy the idea that speech should have consequences. Unless words are being used to incite violence (which arguably is what doxxing is, since the only real information that is being communicated is someone's personally identifying information geographically), the only consequence of speech should be... more speech.

There were a lot of bans that happened prior to Musk taking over--I haven't reviewed every one. My understanding is Musk made the decision to un-ban a lot of accounts that were banned prior to Musk's ownership. There probably are some that need to be shut down again, assuming they post hateful content.

I can't remember though... is Kanye still posting on Twitter?

https://twitter.com/kanyewest?lang=en

Nope.

Mr. Fee Speech Absolutist Billionaire, who bought a whole social media platform for an incredibly inflated price for the purpose of making it the ultimate Free Speech platform and was (is?) widely celebrated for it, is now issuing a blanket ban for accounts linking to other social media platforms, because that is how Free Speech works?
https://twitter.com/TwitterSupport/status/1604531261791522817

I tried to post a link to my mastodon account and Twitter wouldn't allow it ::)

Tbh, it's Musks platform now, and he can allow or disallow any content however he likes. If tomorrow he decides that, going forward, only posts mady by weird incels yodelign epic poems in praise of their chad overlord are allowed, it is well within his rights to do so.
But the fact that so many people buy into his free speech argument crap is stunning to me.

Wow. While I could see where they come from pertaining to promo-accounts since they consider it advertisement for which they want to be paid for, I can only laugh at their stance on private users sharing their other media accounts.

The way it's going they should perhaps rename it to "Litter".

@Stefan @Csar - I absolutely agree with the both of you re the change in not allowing links to other social media sites.

I think in principle, sure, you don't want to have a platform with users where all they are doing is using your platform to advertise for their profiles on other sites.

But how you go about enforcing that... I think this is a stupid move that much more clearly violates his expressed principles of free speech.

I actually hope he rolls this back, or is absolutely transparent about taking action on the new policy (which he won't, I'm sure--Twitter is barely getting around to giving people explanations about user suspensions).

Quote from: MadPooter on Dec 17, 2022, 21:00

Perhaps you liked Twitter better when the United States government had enforcement agencies working with Twitter to censor speech?

https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1603857534737072128

I just skimmed through this thread and his other threads on the Twitter files, that are apparently an attempt by Musk to unearth something scandalous.
The scandalous part here is that law enforcement agencies were in close contact with Twitters content moderation teams? Given how Twitter was an important tool for election meddling and misinformation spreading in the 2016 and 2020 elections that's not so unreasonable.

Quote from: MadPooter on Dec 17, 2022, 21:00

You seem to enjoy the idea that speech should have consequences. Unless words are being used to incite violence (which arguably is what doxxing is, since the only real information that is being communicated is someone's personally identifying information geographically), the only consequence of speech should be... more speech.

Regarding doxxig: What private information is being communicated here? The flight tracker info is already available to literally any person on earth with access to the internet and a device that can run a web browser. I take it doesn't even need sophisticated programming skills to write a bot that posts this information. AFAIK the intent of the bot was to highlight Musks hypocrisy of caring about climate change (his main selling point for Tesla), since he frequently uses his private jet, even for 15-minute flights from SFO to San Jose (a trip which takes maybe an hour with a car, given heavy traffic). The idea that the intent for this information was to incite violence is hilarious. The tracking information is already available to anyone, and Airports are under heavy security (the only places where, all over the US, guns and most other items useable as weapons aren't allowed).
Again, let's just take Musk by his word and see how content moderation on Twitter handles it the next time somebody gets doxxed.

To be clear: consequences is a large spectrum. The consequences most of the people who cry "cancel culture" don't seem to handle that well are... being spoken back to. Usually because they come from some place of power or privilege and are simply not being used to it. The fact that there are huge power imbalances in our societies and that what for some is just funny speech has real concequences, from limited social participation to outright violence, for others is conveniently (ignorantly or purposefully) overlooked. In many cases, there's simply no easy, clear-cut way to make a distinction between harmless speech/jokes/satire and harmful intent/inciting violence without taking into context who's speaking what/about/to whom.
It's quite telling that so much of what the free speech crowd think is being cencored or canceled involves so-called humor targeting vulnurable parts of society (That's the crowd Musk was addressing in his "Comedy is now legal" tweet made shortly after he took over).
I can't see how anyones civil rights are restricted by having more of a conversation about how the speech and language we use affect our society, but that is what many people apparently have an issue with, or see as a real danger for society.
Another reason why I'm so weary and deeply suspicious of this whole free speech/cancel culture debate is that there is a huuuuuuuuge overlap between people who think this is THE most important issue and politicans/political movements that are, for instance, banning thousands of books (https://www.texastribune.org/2022/09/19/texas-book-bans/), or trying to limit civil rights like who the fuck consenting adults can marry, or limiting/denying basic healthcare to trans people.

Quote from: Stefan on Dec 18, 2022, 21:54

I can't see how anyones civil rights are restricted by having more of a conversation about how the speech and language we use affect our society, but that is what many people apparently have an issue with, or see as a real danger for society.

I see absolutely no evidence of conversation regarding that topic, both side just shout down each other and label one another with now completely empty terms like "incel" "woke" "privilege" and somehow think they are contributing to progress. 
But what one can observe - our society lost any tolerance for people who make mistakes.
People lose their jobs, their livelihood just because they say something ignorant or stupid these days. 
We don't engage anymore or teach people to do better. We just punish them.

Well perhaps I could have posted this in the "funny shit" thread or the WTF thread.

Anyway, as I understand it, Andrew Tate was so determined to win the "beef" he started with Greta that he gave away his location and got himself arrested/detained. It kinda feels like a plot from a tv show rather than real life. Can it really be true?

https://twitter.com/Esqueer_/status/1608580052220014592

https://twitter.com/Esqueer_/status/1608584447678631937

https://twitter.com/Esqueer_/status/1608588291900870657

The Daily Mail (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11583711/Andrew-Tates-luxury-villa-Romania-raided-police.html) says it's true (!).


EDIT: Just a brief follow-on:
https://twitter.com/GretaThunberg/status/1608735970131849217

Who's this person?

that follow-on is even better  ;D

Quote from: Csar on Dec 30, 2022, 09:21

Who's this person?

Have to say that before Thunberg postet her "mailadress" i'd also never heard of him

edit: her mailadress-posting is now on 6 in that most likes twitter postings list

he is a disgusting misogynistic piece of shit.

if you want to be sickened, read on: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/06/andrew-tate-violent-misogynistic-world-of-tiktok-new-star

Assuming Andrew Tate is guilty of sex trafficking, glad to see that guy go down.

Unfortunately, it is not quite as entertaining as people thought it might be.

https://twitter.com/SaraSorcher/status/1608861801768255489

https://twitter.com/DrPooter/status/1610811082712690688

this speaker situation would be quite amusing if it weren't also getting in the way of our government actually doing shit.

Quote from: shakermaker on Jan 05, 2023, 02:34

this speaker situation would be quite amusing if it weren't also getting in the way of our government actually doing shit.

Agreed. 100%.

Quote from: shakermaker on Dec 30, 2022, 16:33

he is a disgusting misogynistic piece of shit.

if you want to be sickened, read on: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/aug/06/andrew-tate-violent-misogynistic-world-of-tiktok-new-star

Ugh, so, your typical alpha baboon who gets to show off his red behind on social media - his sole source of attention. Just sad.

Quote from: shakermaker on Jan 05, 2023, 02:34

this speaker situation would be quite amusing if it weren't also getting in the way of our government actually doing shit.

Yeah, it's really tragic for the people since nothing gets done until the speaker is elected.
But at the same time I can't deny my clantestine, petty joy that this spineless opportunist gets a taste of what it means to pander to the extrimists and the right wing mob caucus. His spine only showed for like 5 min when he denounced Jan 6. in the chamber but immediately went missing shortly after he felt like bending the knee at Mar-a-Lago to secure his endorsement to finally become speaker of the house. Well deserved imo.
Hopefully they'll be getting over this as soon as possible so they can get back to business.

It will be such a relief when we finally agree on a Speaker so we can go from getting nothing done to instead getting nothing done that actually helps most average Americans.

Well now that that's over with we can see how (dys)functional the current Congress can be!

I don't know if any of you have been keeping up with the Andrew Callaghan story...

https://newsprince.xyz/2023/01/12/all-gas-no-brakes-andrew-callaghan-responds-to-sexual-misconduct-accusation/

Sounds like his M.O. was that he was a little creepy/pushy with girls--which seriously, guys should know better than that--but the person who started this whole thing was trying to extort Callaghan for money or else she would go public with her story of how them hooking up went.

All in all, it seems like it ends up being a parade of assholes. My apologies to any victims of sexual assault--this is a very sensitive topic and triggering for some.

But this does not seem to be a straightforward narrative.

This felt like a genuine apology from Andrew Callaghan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQt3TgIo5e8

Open question:

What does accountability look like to you? What should happen to someone who has been, for one reason or another, "cancelled"?

Quote from: MadPooter on Jan 23, 2023, 19:39

Open question:

What does accountability look like to you? What should happen to someone who has been, for one reason or another, "cancelled"?

Depends on what they've done. I'm not sure there's a one-size-fits-all answer to this.

https://twitter.com/BNOFeed/status/1617288529733632002

^I think this guy probably needs to lose his licence. Probably time to go get a job stacking shelves at the supermarket. But ulitimately his future as a doctor will be decided by a medical board, not by me. If he gets to keep his job he might not be my first choice of plastic surgeon (!), but I think that would be my prerogative to say: no thanks.

I remember reading a long interview with Monica Lewinski a few years ago. She talked about how everyone just expected her to disappear after those revelations. I seem to recall that Hillary Clinton attacked Lewinski more than she critiised her own husband. Lewinsky was kinda "cancelled" long before the "holier-than-thou's" on twitter ever existed. So perhaps this isn't as new a phenomenon as we might think.  Here's a Harpers Bazaar article from 2018: We all owe Monica Lewinsky an apology (https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a21530030/monica-lewinsky-apology/)

To take one final example, the paedophile pop star Gary Glitter has been in and out of the UK news (and jail) for some time now. He's now 78 and just about to be released from jail again. In the unlikely event that he were to attempt to revive his pop career, do I think the media should play his music, interview him etc as part of the promotion cycle? No I don't. But would someone who is against "cancelling" agree with me? And what if he were guilty of say, manslaughter rather than paedophilia? Who decides whether the media would/should accomodate him?

Incidentally Gary Glitter has been previously sampled by the KLF (under their Timelords pseudonym) and he did actually have a couple of good Glam Rock tracks "back in the day". It saddens me that I can't enjoy those tunes. But I understand why he doesn't get played and I'd struggle to enjoy those songs without thinking "paedo".

EDIT: Here's the track that was sampled. It was also used in Joker for the stair dancing scene. There are some interesting YT comments underneath it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-hB1TzoG7M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH96S4rBZbI

@Wolkenkrabber

I'm one of those people that can remove the art from the artist. I wasn't originally like this, but as you become more aware (not trying to preach to you, just spouting my opinion), there's countless names that could be mentioned which have crossed moral barriers (some more unforgivable then others). Life is too short to deny stuff that might intrigue you.

For example, I can't help but love most of the music that Phil Spector help produce and all the artists that were deeply influenced by his style. Do I dismiss that he is a murder and overall horrible person? No.  But he created something significant in this world, and it meant something to a lot of artists I enjoy.

That being said, I feel horrible for any victims out there. In no way am I trying to convince victims or surviving family members of victims, to feel the same way.

By the way, I love Gary Glitters "Hey" song aka Rock n' Roll part 2


Honestly, I hate the question you asked Madpooter. This is the type of loaded questioning that gets everyone in trouble post-thanksgiving meal.  :))

Quote from: Bosco on Jan 24, 2023, 07:36

@Wolkenkrabber

I'm one of those people that can remove the art from the artist. ...

For example, I can't help but love most of the music that Phil Spector help produce ...

By the way, I love Gary Glitters "Hey" song aka Rock n' Roll part 2

I still like Phil Spector's stuff too.
There's a scene in the film Tár (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14444726/) where a music student tells conductor Lydia Tár (Cate Blanchett) that he won't perform certain composers' work because of who they were as people. This leads to Ms Tar having an ... interesting discussion about music and life with the student. You'll have to see the film for the outcome.

Wagner was (IMHO) a complete dick, but because he's dead I think it's easier to enjoy his music than if he were alive.
Because Phil Spector is in jail forever, I think it's easy to almost dismiss him as though he's dead and can do no further harm.

So at the risk of stirring the hornets nest further, re Gary Glitter (soon to be a free man, again). Some people were concerned that the guy might receive some form of royalties/payments as a result of his song being used in Joker. And, perhaps with good reason they didn't like the idea of a convicted paedophile making money out of a film (and by extension their cinema tickets).
I read that he actually wouldn't be making any money from Joker.  [Question 1:] But what if he did make money from it? Would you be happy that your Cineworld ticket could have helped fund the life (and continuing "lifestyle") of a convicted paedophile? He was convicted in 1999, 2006 and 2015. He was also expelled from Cambodia in 2002.

And a second question: When Gary Glitter gets out of jail, he could decide to start promoting his music in the media with interviews etc. If you worked for a radio/TV station as a guest booker, would you book Gary Glitter?

Quote from: Bosco on Jan 24, 2023, 07:36

Honestly, I hate the question you asked Madpooter. This is the type of loaded questioning that gets everyone in trouble post-thanksgiving meal.  :))

It's unfortunate that everyone feels that they would "get in trouble" for their response. It's also unfortunate that... you're not wrong. Although obviously I don't care what you say, and I wish that other people wouldn't care so much.

We appear to have hit the ultimate "meta" question for this topic here. This is a difficult subject that is so difficult to discuss that it cannot be fully discussed, apparently.

I asked between 10-20 people on Twitter what they thought accountability meant, just to see what people thought about the concept. Most didn't respond. I thought that was strange considering how most of them were so adamant that we focus on accountability.

Thank you, nonetheless, for your input.

Quote from: Wolkenkrabber on Jan 24, 2023, 12:20

[Question 1:] But what if he did make money from it? Would you be happy that your Cineworld ticket could have helped fund the life (and continuing "lifestyle") of a convicted paedophile? He was convicted in 1999, 2006 and 2015. He was also expelled from Cambodia in 2002.

And a second question: When Gary Glitter gets out of jail, he could decide to start promoting his music in the media with interviews etc. If you worked for a radio/TV station as a guest booker, would you book Gary Glitter?

1. No I wouldn't be happy. But I also know that there is so many things in life which I'm buying goods or services from, that might fund something that I don't agree with either. Ignorance is bliss, I'm afraid...
I'm not trying to be cold hearted, there is exceptions that rub me the wrong way. I guess I'm more of the "pick your battles" type.

2. And no, I would not book Gary Glitter to any type of media booking. With maybe the exception, that in return a large donation being put towards PTSD organizations, which exclusively take care of victims of rape, pedophilia, or child molestation.

I can't imagine there would ever be a positive spin to Gary Glitter's career once he's out of jail. He's very much doomed like Bill Cosby.


BTW, Phil Spector is dead. I don't know if you knew that, your wording didn't infer that. Either way, your point is made.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jan 24, 2023, 19:49

This is a difficult subject that is so difficult to discuss that it cannot be fully discussed, apparently.

Accountability is tricky. It's easy when it's "the other", hard when it's you. I guess that's why most are silent on the topic.
Even discussing art done by morally questionable people (or truly awful people) is hard to discuss.
Should Wagner be wiped out of history because of his anti-Semite views?
Would humanity be diminished for it? Should it?
Does one really think about his views while listening to his work?
Would it be different if he walked this Earth right now, earn money from it, to spew more hatred?

All those are hard questions for me and I could argue multiple viewpoints endlessly.
Another thing that's hard about it is platform we use to discuss it.
Nuance is non-existent in internet discussions. And it's sorely needed for such difficult topics.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jan 23, 2023, 19:39

Open question:

What does accountability look like to you? What should happen to someone who has been, for one reason or another, "cancelled"?

This almost felt like an exam question: "Discuss accountability and the concept of being 'cancelled' using your own examples to back up your argument".

Well, I don't know whether you got the answer(s) you wanted in my replies. But perhaps the question was too open? I think if you asked a more specific question, providing an example(s), it might solicit more of a response.

So, Pooter tell us: who got "cancelled", what did they do to get cancelled, and who cancelled them?
Is it those who did the cancelling whom you want to see held accountable?

I tried to put some meat on the bones of your question by picking three examples. Your comments feel a bit abstract to me. And I'm not sure that everyone who claims they have been cancelled really has been. Some people seem to just use it as an excuse for getting a bad reception when they say/do bad things. They sometimes blame those who gave them the bad reception.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jan 24, 2023, 19:49

It's unfortunate that everyone feels that they would "get in trouble" for their response. It's also unfortunate that... you're not wrong. Although obviously I don't care what you say, and I wish that other people wouldn't care so much.

1) I claim exemption from "everyone". I've attempted to reply and I'm probably hogging the thread at this point!

2) Re: not caring, would it be fair to say that you care enough to a) ask the original question and b) rue the fact that you're not getting the replies you seek?

3) In terms of wishing that others wouldn't care so much, I would suggest that issues such as homophobia and other forms of bigotry are less tolerated now precisely because people care. Because they won't turn a blind eye. And, at the risk of using a lazy example, perhaps if people had cared a bit more about Hitlers sh*t back in the 1930s (I include Germans in that), the world might have avoided a holocaust, a war and a whole load of aggro.

---

Quote from: Bosco on Jan 24, 2023, 20:33

BTW, Phil Spector is dead. I don't know if you knew that, your wording didn't infer that. Either way, your point is made.

Ha! I actually forgot that he had died! My bad.

Quote from: Wolkenkrabber on Jan 25, 2023, 22:25

This almost felt like an exam question: "Discuss accountability and the concept of being 'cancelled' using your own examples to back up your argument".

Well, I don't know whether you got the answer(s) you wanted in my replies. But perhaps the question was too open? I think if you asked a more specific question, providing an example(s), it might solicit more of a response.

So, Pooter tell us: who got "cancelled", what did they do to get cancelled, and who cancelled them?
Is it those who did the cancelling whom you want to see held accountable?

I tried to put some meat on the bones of your question by picking three examples. Your comments feel a bit abstract to me. And I'm not sure that everyone who claims they have been cancelled really has been. Some people seem to just use it as an excuse for getting a bad reception when they say/do bad things. They sometimes blame those who gave them the bad reception.

1) I claim exemption from "everyone". I've attempted to reply and I'm probably hogging the thread at this point!

2) Re: not caring, would it be fair to say that you care enough to a) ask the original question and b) rue the fact that you're not getting the replies you seek?

3) In terms of wishing that others wouldn't care so much, I would suggest that issues such as homophobia and other forms of bigotry are less tolerated now precisely because people care. Because they won't turn a blind eye. And, at the risk of using a lazy example, perhaps if people had cared a bit more about Hitlers sh*t back in the 1930s (I include Germans in that), the world might have avoided a holocaust, a war and a whole load of aggro.

This isn't really supposed to be an argument; this is supposed to be a discussion. I wanted to let people talk about what they understand accountability to be without inserting my own opinion about what I think accountability should be.

I also didn't want this to be a discussion between me and everyone else--I wanted to encourage people to talk about what they understand is necessary to feel okay about holding people accountable for their actions... and then allowing us to move on as a global society.

So, yes, this topic does tend to be pretty abstract sometimes.

So far I like how even this limited discussion identifies the complexity of what accountability means depending on the context, and the definition will shift in accordance with the severity of whatever behavior or actions require accountability. I agree with Sandelic that this becomes an even more difficult conversation when it potentially involves people's own actions or behaviors.

This conversation does, indeed, necessarily involve a discussion of cancel culture. And to address your question of who has been cancelled, here are some links, though this is not an exhaustive list, and all are examples from the U.S.:

In Academia: https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/scholars-under-fire

In Hollywood: https://pagesix.com/article/canceled-celebrities-where-are-they-now/

In other industries (some crossover): https://www.heritage.org/progressivism/commentary/12-people-canceled-the-left-after-expressing-conservative-views

The incident which prompted this topic of discussion I had actually just posted about immediately prior my original post--this involved Andrew Callaghan (https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1149748975/a-full-guide-to-the-sexual-misconduct-allegations-against-youtuber-andrew-callag).

Depending on how you defined "cancelled" you may or may not agree with the above lists of "cancellations." There are also varying definitions of "cancel culture" as well.

I tend to define "cancelled" as describing how an individual who held some notable position or engaged in a substantive trade or profession--because of some verboten (but mostly not illegal) conduct--is excluded from that position or trade/profession at the behest of public outcry, typically on social media.

It's the fast-food equivalent of the expectation of justice; it's the stilted corporate response coddled by consumer habits, feeding a bloated, unwieldy, amorphous process that allows for a sense of satisfaction akin to us changing the channel away from a program that we do not find suitable to our tastes.

Admittedly this is hyperbole, of course--and in defense of the above sometimes there are good results. Something did need to be done about Harvey Weinstein, and Kanye probably isn't going to do the world any favors by spouting off about the Jews.

Responding to your experience, I'm happy to read that you do not feel as though you would "get in trouble" for talking about your opinion regarding controversies. It's surprising, at least from what I've read  (https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/21/15847262/german-facebook-raid-hate-incitement)about how some Germans have been treated for some statements made on the Internet.

In the United States, 6 out of every 10 people are afraid to voice their opinions (https://www.thefire.org/news/national-fire-survey-cancel-culture-widely-viewed-threat-democracy-freedom). In the bay area of California, where I live, it is exacerbated. Anyone saying anything not following leftist narratives are met with outright hostility.

I do hope that we get to a point where Americans are more freely able to discuss issues more freely--it feels ironic for me to say that, but I have trouble understanding that it's not true.

Thank you for responding--I'm not sure I agree with your suggestions re historical attitudes.

I mean cancel culture seems to be bs cos the people we try to hold accountable still are given platforms constantly...Mel Gibson, Dave Chappelle etc.

Complaining about it feels almost akin to wanting the right to be bigoted towards others, cos like...there's a difference between difference of opinion and stuff like homophobia and transphobia, which like Wolkenkrabber said is coming from people doubling down on how much individuals have been embraced, or even anything..."woke" I hate that word lol

But idk it feels more like this is just stoking the flames and eliciting the "right" response rather than genuine discussion but that's just me, I'm just tired of the lack of distinction between opinions and...prejudice and predatory behavior cos that's really what it boils down to...

The people whining about being canceled literally have their platforms handed to them and even when they get "canceled"...they aren't...but those who are actually suffering or are victims...also become victim to a manufactured culture war...hence the need for accountability

Quote from: hstn on Jan 26, 2023, 02:30

I mean cancel culture seems to be bs cos the people we try to hold accountable still are given platforms constantly...Mel Gibson, Dave Chappelle etc.

Complaining about it feels almost akin to wanting the right to be bigoted towards others, cos like...there's a difference between difference of opinion and stuff like homophobia and transphobia, which like Wolkenkrabber said is coming from people doubling down on how much individuals have been embraced, or even anything..."woke" I hate that word lol

But idk it feels more like this is just stoking the flames and eliciting the "right" response rather than genuine discussion but that's just me, I'm just tired of the lack of distinction between opinions and...prejudice and predatory behavior cos that's really what it boils down to...

The people whining about being canceled literally have their platforms handed to them and even when they get "canceled"...they aren't...but those who are actually suffering or are victims...also become victim to a manufactured culture war...hence the need for accountability

And so that leads us back to the original intent of this topic:

What does accountability mean for you?

Shout out to our French brothers and sisters.

https://twitter.com/APStylebook/status/1619005157508845568

Shout out to Tucker Carlson who is absolutely furious with M&Ms for not being sexy enough! Especially the green one (it would be the green one - damn lefty environmentalists!).

https://twitter.com/MetroUS/status/1618277522176606208

We don't have these ranters on our news channels in my 'neighbourhood' and I think it might be a good thing. Report the news on the news channels, let people rant on some other programme/channel.
(Well unless you're that Infowars guy - cos he tells lies and gets sued).

Quote from: Wolkenkrabber on Jan 27, 2023, 21:51

Shout out to Tucker Carlson who is absolutely furious with M&Ms for not being sexy enough! Especially the green one (it would be the green one - damn lefty environmentalists!).

https://twitter.com/MetroUS/status/1618277522176606208

We don't have these ranters on our news channels in my 'neighbourhood' and I think it might be a good thing. Report the news on the news channels, let people rant on some other programme/channel.
(Well unless you're that Infowars guy - cos he tells lies and gets sued).

It is absolutely hilarious how some people on the right like to call everyone snowflakes but simultaneously lose their shit when animated characters don't look like they think they should.

Brexit Update.
This guy was the Chancellor (finance minsiter), now he's the Prime Minister.
He supported Brexit.
Listen to him sing the praises of membership of the EU Single Market!

https://twitter.com/ITVNewsPolitics/status/1630517445369688065

"only you guys have that here". Well Rishi, there was a time when, y'know...

I'll let you in on a secret: "Idiocracy" was a documentary! We now have entered this epoch.

https://twitter.com/dancingastro/status/1638012327483129863

Some oddly critical words from Anthony Gonzales of M83. Kind of exudes a certain amount of insecurity.

https://twitter.com/LA_ray_/status/1639309046007070720

I'm hearing unsubstantiated rumors about this particular women-oriented fast-food chain...

They did get rid of their creamy sriracha dip, which I have to say has resulted in significantly lower visits to said women-oriented fast-food chain from me...

Yeah ok but this is how I feel like every year when Pumpkin Spice Season ends at Starbucks

A Chemical Brother has retweeted this:

https://twitter.com/SouthpawLeftist/status/1640797477128527872

https://twitter.com/TheTNHoller/status/1631685109119057920

This made the rounds at the beginning of the month (I retweeted it then ;) )

Jon Stewart is in excellent form there.

In light of this weeks horrific shooting, the right's attack on queer people will only get worse, but this is how their cruel bigotry should be replied to, anytime. The problem is guns. If gender idendity had any role in it, no cis men should be allowed within miles of any gun store:
https://twitter.com/SocDoneLeft/status/1640550826782478337

https://twitter.com/TheDailyShow/status/1641564489865625600

I like the wording  ;D

Make accountability great again!

Honestly I just needed to vent about this. this has been the most shit week ever (and I just worked a hotel on spring break, last week)

Spoiler because this might be too serious even for this topic

Spoiler

(https://i.imgur.com/HXelKFW.jpg)

I didn't even have my drivers license for 3 months! Its been 2 days since this happened and I'm still shell-shocked from the whole fiasco.

I was on my way home from work, where this intersection is, right behind the Subway there is a Bi-mart (dunno if they even have these out of state, let alone out of country). As I was about to pull in, a white Prius with a pink sticker pulled out, and began riding inside the turning lane as I was trying to pull in.

I dunno what I did to aggravate the driver, but I kept trying to pull ahead so I can get in, and every time the Prius kept speeding up as if he was challenging me. The 3rd attempt I managed to get into the lane but that was when I lost control, and sideswiped a pole to an RV park sign (to the left off camera) and slid right into the sidewalk of the subway parking lot.

Fucker didn't even stop to check on me, he sped away after/while I crashed.

The one time I chose to take the highway, the 1 FUCKING time.

The good news is I am still keeping my license (DMV needed documentation of the accident within 3 days), and our insurance did not go up (we've been so careful for 20 years, our account reached a rank to where "not at fault" accidents won't be penalized)

The bad news is now I'm down a truck, at surface level, it appeared the bumper was popped out, many paint gashes, the drive shaft dislocated, and a totaled back right wheel, but really, the hind wheels are dislocated from the frame, which is bent so bad even if I wanted to go straight, I'm turning.

we still have a car yes, but getting everybody to and from places is now a chore again, AND it means we're gonna have to get a rental car (if we're still even going to Seattle).

I start work again tomorrow, and my buddy says he's able to pick me up for work and drop me back off. Honestly, I can't thank him enough, I just needed somebody to talk to while my parents assessed the damage, but he was on sight and stayed with me while I waited for the Tow Truck, and even took me to the mechanic & back home.

Nobody got hurt (thank god) but I honestly don't even know if I wanna drive again.

Quote from: Conn6orsuper117 on Apr 06, 2023, 03:26

Honestly I just needed to vent about this. this has been the most shit week ever (and I just worked a hotel on spring break, last week)

Spoiler because this might be too serious even for this topic

Spoiler

(https://i.imgur.com/HXelKFW.jpg)

I didn't even have my drivers license for 3 months! Its been 2 days since this happened and I'm still shell-shocked from the whole fiasco.

I was on my way home from work, where this intersection is, right behind the Subway there is a Bi-mart (dunno if they even have these out of state, let alone out of country). As I was about to pull in, a white Prius with a pink sticker pulled out, and began riding inside the turning lane as I was trying to pull in.

I dunno what I did to aggravate the driver, but I kept trying to pull ahead so I can get in, and every time the Prius kept speeding up as if he was challenging me. The 3rd attempt I managed to get into the lane but that was when I lost control, and sideswiped a pole to an RV park sign (to the left off camera) and slid right into the sidewalk of the subway parking lot.

Fucker didn't even stop to check on me, he sped away after/while I crashed.

The one time I chose to take the highway, the 1 FUCKING time.

The good news is I am still keeping my license (DMV needed documentation of the accident within 3 days), and our insurance did not go up (we've been so careful for 20 years, our account reached a rank to where "not at fault" accidents won't be penalized)

The bad news is now I'm down a truck, at surface level, it appeared the bumper was popped out, many paint gashes, the drive shaft dislocated, and a totaled back right wheel, but really, the hind wheels are dislocated from the frame, which is bent so bad even if I wanted to go straight, I'm turning.

we still have a car yes, but getting everybody to and from places is now a chore again, AND it means we're gonna have to get a rental car (if we're still even going to Seattle).

I start work again tomorrow, and my buddy says he's able to pick me up for work and drop me back off. Honestly, I can't thank him enough, I just needed somebody to talk to while my parents assessed the damage, but he was on sight and stayed with me while I waited for the Tow Truck, and even took me to the mechanic & back home.

Nobody got hurt (thank god) but I honestly don't even know if I wanna drive again.

Oh damn, Connor, I'm so sorry this happened to you, and so early in your driving career. Glad neither you nor enyone else got hurt!
Yeah, it's like what I always say: Besides oneself, you've got to look out for all the other idiots out there on the streets.
It's a real shame about what happened to your car. I know from first hand experience how dependent you guys are over there because public transportation is not an (apt) option lots of the times (we're a bit lucky in that regard here in Ger). And it was YOUR first car as well. I can feel the pain.

This Prius driver was just plain reckless.Because this is what we're taught in driving school: To not speed up when another car is next to you trying to get in or overtake, in order to not start a "race" or to "get even" with someone, even if that someone might have been in the wrong.
From what I can tell in your post is that you're not yet that at ease while driving that might have aggravated the situation a bit, which would be totally understandable. My god, I was really nervous the first weeks and months after getting my license, I still wonder how I managed to survive at that time :) .
Which is why I would absolutely encourage you to not give up driving or be discouraged by a-holes. You need as much practice as you can get and thus gain experience which in the near future will help you stay calmer and more in control in situations like these. Trust me. And even then, sometimes things just happen, no matter how vigilant you are.
Like with me, 3 years ago, right in the middle of the pandemic, I had an appointment in the city. There were practically no cars on the streets, really low traffic. I decided to park the car front first (parking spaces were arranged in an angle to the sidewalk). Next to my right side, there was a van which blocked the sight. So, when I tried to pull out again, I really looked carefully for traffic from both sides, one, two, three, four times, until I decided to finally give it a go. Yeah, and there it was. A Mercedes truck came towards my tail and there was no time left to react, even though I pulled back really slow. I was lucky that the car only sustained a big dent/scraches right above the tail lights, which would have been really expensive to repair/replace. The other guy driving the Mercedes was really calm as it "only" was a leasing car, so he didn't complicate the situation.
This was my first accident ever after 18 years of driving.

So please, don't give up and try to stay as calm and vigilant as you can and over time, you'll becoming a top notch fearless driver!

Stop the steal! Stop the ste...

Oh hang on.
https://twitter.com/jonsopel/status/1648424457680338945

https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1648423279282257925

https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1648434628292915201

I think it's a shame that the settlement doesn't incude an an-air acknowledgement. The people living in a Fox News bubble can probably just carry on with their blinkers on. They need to be told the truth by their "leaders".

I imagine the January 6th 'types' will claim this is a fix by the Deep State or by a pizza restaurant in Washington DC or something...

---

On a slightly different subject, I guess I could put this in the "funny shit" thread, but I'm in this thread now and I reckon someone here might like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydbR0-Ag7d4

and our capitalist system continues to enable the rich to avoid consequences.

Woman, this Dominoin settlement p*ssed me off so much last night, I can't tell how much. They had such a strong case already, the judge had already ruled that Fox did broadcast lies and Dominion had not to prove that anymore to the jury. Damn, I so wanted to see all these liars on stand (especially this a-hole Tucker Carlson, who wanted to get a female colleague fired because she reported facts!! ) admitting to their lies and defrauding of their own audience.

This settlement should have at least compelled Fox to air public acknowledgements, apologies and retractions of their disinformation for the next 6 months in each of these talking-heads shows. This would have been the real blow to Fox and their hosts because this is their true currency (the $1.6bn would have been almost petty cash).

But, oh well, justice always has to take a detour, I guess. At least we got their admissions from discovery that they fear (and loath) their own viewers as a consequence of their feeding them all this crap for the sake of profit.

Quote from: Wolkenkrabber on Apr 18, 2023, 23:47

On a slightly different subject, I guess I could put this in the "funny shit" thread, but I'm in this thread now and I reckon someone here might like this.

I thought it was funny until the very last part with the owner. I didn't get that.

When we discussed Funk D'Void here (https://forum.thechembase.com/index.php/topic,769.msg11117.html#msg11117) back in 2017, I hadn't previously heard of The Proud Boys. I must admit I just thought they were minor "assholes" like Mr D'Void himself (he later issued a half-assed apology for associating with them).
Who knew they would go on to be found guilty of seditious conspiracy in an attempted coup?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU8x3l7o0bo

---

BTW I also mention Gary Glitter in that 2017 Funk D'Void/Proud Boys post. And I mentioned Gary Glitter more recently right here (https://forum.thechembase.com/index.php/topic,1075.msg30866.html#msg30866) in this thread.
Since then,  Glitter did actually get released from jail:
https://twitter.com/rtl_today/status/1621510081996267520

and then got recalled to jail the following month:
https://twitter.com/MetroUK/status/1635349704832630784

Keeping you abreast of all the Gary Glitter news!

Never liked the vibe of the Proud Boys.

If their intent was to *actually* try to bring down the U.S. government on behalf of Trump, and apparently a jury thought the answer to that was a "yes," fuck those guys--they deserve prison.

Not sure how many people are following the news this past week about Jordan Neely, a black, homeless, mentally-ill individual who had to be restrained on a NYC subway train by fellow passengers after he started shouting on the subway train, and verbally threatening immediate physical harm to other passengers.

Neely was apparently something of a known commodity on the NYC subway--he had a history of violently assaulting people on the subway, had been arrested over 40 times, and had an active warrant out for his arrest after he violently assaulted a 67 year-old woman (he broke her jaw).

Three people restrained him--one of them was a 24 year-old marine who put Neely in a chokehold--and police/emergency personnel were notified.

Tragically, Neely died as a result of asphyxiation--the coroner ruled it a homicide.

The Left is treating this as a race issue because Neely was black and the marine is white, and asking why the system failed Neely.

Here's my take.

https://twitter.com/DrPooter/status/1654940045919543296

Sources:

https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/man-dies-on-subway-chokehold-incident/

https://nypost.com/2023/05/05/who-was-jordan-neely-the-man-killed-in-nyc-subway-chokehold/

Update:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/13a5nwx/complete_chaos_just_now_in_manhattan_as/

People were blocking the subway today in NYC in protest of... whatever they believe was wrong here.

Quote from: MadPooter on May 06, 2023, 20:35

Not sure how many people are following the news this past week about Jordan Neely, a black, homeless, mentally-ill individual who had to be restrained on a NYC subway train by fellow passengers after he started shouting on the subway train, and verbally threatening immediate physical harm to other passengers.

Neely was apparently something of a known commodity on the NYC subway--he had a history of violently assaulting people on the subway, had been arrested over 40 times, and had an active warrant out for his arrest after he violently assaulted a 67 year-old woman (he broke her jaw).

Three people restrained him--one of them was a 24 year-old marine who put Neely in a chokehold--and police/emergency personnel were notified.

Tragically, Neely died as a result of asphyxiation--the coroner ruled it a homicide.

The Left is treating this as a race issue because Neely was black and the marine is white, and asking why the system failed Neely.

Here's my take.

https://twitter.com/DrPooter/status/1654940045919543296

Sources:

https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/man-dies-on-subway-chokehold-incident/

https://nypost.com/2023/05/05/who-was-jordan-neely-the-man-killed-in-nyc-subway-chokehold/

A man's crimes doesn't excuse him being restrained or murdered for a minor disturbance on the subway....also Ian Miles Chong is a crook

The Left is right btw...and it's not even black vs white as you shamelessly minimize it, the fact that the marine whose identity is being concealed by the media and police and the fact that he and many others are allowed to do acts of "vigilante justice" that may result in the deaths of people of color is more what's at play here

Quote from: hstn on May 06, 2023, 20:51

A man's crimes doesn't excuse him being restrained or murdered for a minor disturbance on the subway....also Ian Miles Chong is a crook

The Left is right btw...and it's not even black vs white as you shamelessly minimize it, the fact that the marine whose identity is being concealed by the media and police and the fact that he and many others are allowed to do acts of "vigilante justice" that may result in the deaths of people of color is more what's at play here

You have some serious conspiracy theories my friend.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nyc-subway-rider-accused-jordan-neelys-chokehold-death-marine-veteran-rcna83068

https://nypost.com/2023/02/28/deshawn-thomas-allegedly-shoots-st-louis-homeless-man-execution-style-video/

https://twitter.com/realDailyWire/status/1664424891372941312

Conservative pundit Matt Walsh made a documentary about the conversation of transgender issues in America, titled "What Is a Woman?"

Twitter initially made a deal to allow the Daily Wire to post the documentary and make it available to view for free for 24 hours.

Twitter reviewed the documentary and backpedaled. They stated that they could not allow the documentary to be available on Twitter because it is considered "hateful conduct," specifically two moments in the documentary where people apparently misgender individuals.

Ultimately Twitter allowed the Daily Wire to post the documentary, though the tweet containing the stream of the video was heavily restricted, labeled as hateful conduct, and people were not able to share the link to the tweet directly.

Having watched the documentary, it's just some conservative dude going around asking a bunch of basic questions and not reacting when people get flustered.

The documentary's perspective comes from the traditional limitations of Conservative thought--there's a certain amount of fear of the unknown of what is outside of the ideas of a nuclear family.

Nevertheless, there are important questions presented in how we're handling the transgender issues with our children. And what is more disturbing to me is an indication of repression of a full discussion of the topic, exemplified in how Twitter itself handled negotiating the availability of the documentary on its platform.

I certainly would not characterize the documentary as hate. I don't agree with the limited perspective of where Matt Walsh is coming from, but the point he's making seems to be grounded in genuine concerns.

Anyway. Enough transphobic ranting for one day.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 02, 2023, 08:07

https://twitter.com/realDailyWire/status/1664424891372941312

Conservative pundit Matt Walsh made a documentary about the conversation of transgender issues in America, titled "What Is a Woman?"

Twitter initially made a deal to allow the Daily Wire to post the documentary and make it available to view for free for 24 hours.

Twitter reviewed the documentary and backpedaled. They stated that they could not allow the documentary to be available on Twitter because it is considered "hateful conduct," specifically two moments in the documentary where people apparently misgender individuals.

Ultimately Twitter allowed the Daily Wire to post the documentary, though the tweet containing the stream of the video was heavily restricted, labeled as hateful conduct, and people were not able to share the link to the tweet directly.

Having watched the documentary, it's just some conservative dude going around asking a bunch of basic questions and not reacting when people get flustered.

The documentary's perspective comes from the traditional limitations of Conservative thought--there's a certain amount of fear of the unknown of what is outside of the ideas of a nuclear family.

Nevertheless, there are important questions presented in how we're handling the transgender issues with our children. And what is more disturbing to me is an indication of repression of a full discussion of the topic, exemplified in how Twitter itself handled negotiating the availability of the documentary on its platform.

I certainly would not characterize the documentary as hate. I don't agree with the limited perspective of where Matt Walsh is coming from, but the point he's making seems to be grounded in genuine concerns.

Anyway. Enough transphobic ranting for one day.

The only repression going on right now is to the queer and trans individuals who have to face the BS of bigots constantly questioning their existence daily. The groomer/what is a woman mentality has been damaging to the LGBTQ+ community all over the country with all the laws being passed and perverts like Matt Walsh constantly riding this discourse when the general American really doesn't care about "wokeness" or whatever buzzword conservative bigots come up with to deny people like myself civil liberties

Also first Ian Miles Cheong, now Matt Walsh, kinda on the wrong side of history don't you think? Especially when there are so many conservatives/alt right people trying to frame LGBTQ+ people and drag queens as groomers when many seem to forget about the skeletons in their own closet, it's never been about the children at all


Protect Trans Kids

Quote from: hstn on Jun 02, 2023, 17:40

The only repression going on right now is to the queer and trans individuals who have to face the BS of bigots constantly questioning their existence daily. The groomer/what is a woman mentality has been damaging to the LGBTQ+ community all over the country with all the laws being passed and perverts like Matt Walsh constantly riding this discourse when the general American really doesn't care about "wokeness" or whatever buzzword conservative bigots come up with to deny people like myself civil liberties

Also first Ian Miles Cheong, now Matt Walsh, kinda on the wrong side of history don't you think? Especially when there are so many conservatives/alt right people trying to frame LGBTQ+ people and drag queens as groomers when many seem to forget about the skeletons in their own closet, it's never been about the children at all


Protect Trans Kids

I certainly feel for trans individuals that have to deal with idiots harassing them.

I don't think that asking questions about what is best for children is somehow responsible for that harassment, and there was nothing about Matt Walsh's disposition toward trans individuals in the documentary that made me feel that that was the intent (he actually talks to trans individuals directly and the conversations appeared very respectful).

I'm not sure why you mentioned Ian Miles Chong--he had nothing to do with the production of Matt Walsh's documentary and I didn't reference him. Are you referring to the entirely different topic of conversation regarding the NYC incident from weeks ago and tying it somehow to this discussion?

With regards to history, from what I've read there is an actual legitimate concern with the long-term health effects of puberty blockers (https://accpjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jac5.1691), and there is a legitimate question with applying the treatment as a "salve" whenever a minor questions their gender. European countries have reversed course and are now calling for more data before relying on hormone blockers.

It would be particularly tragic if we ended up permanently and adversely affecting the health of minors because they were presented with a false dichotomy of either taking puberty blockers or dying.

I'm not a medical or psychological expert, but there appear to be real questions from experts in those fields that are suggesting there are known, permanent adverse health effects from prescribing puberty blockers, and there are no known studies that fully present an adequate consideration of the risks.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "protect trans kids" when what you appear to be saying is "this shouldn't be discussed."

This whole bigotry from the so-called conservatives is so laughable, since it's the very same people who argue that oh they care so much for the children, at the same time want firearms to be handed out basically like candy. Thoughts and prayers I guess.
And, while they dream up their conspiracy narrative of LGBTQ groomer culture, are often pretty silent when it comes to the countless abuse scandals in religious groups.
They care about the children? Gender-Affirming care acutally reduces suicide risk among non-heteronormative youth (https://www.hcplive.com/view/suicide-risk-reduces-73-transgender-nonbinary-youths-gender-affirming-care). It's not about protecting children, it's about denying neccessary healthcare.

The laughable idea that their bathroom bills are about protecting women from harrassment (lol, men do that all the time, no one ever felt the need to dress up for that), while in reality, it leads to women getting harrassed for using the bathroom (https://www.vox.com/2016/5/18/11690234/women-bathrooms-harassment). It's not about protecting women from harrassment, it's about denying people access to the public space who don't conform with white supremacists ideas of how women should look like.

Btw, in case you think there are any legitimate questions raised by Matt Walsh in this movie, here's an extensive fact-check on his pseudoscientific hit-piece: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/in-what-is-a-woman-matt-walsh-asks-a-question/

If you are generally curious about the "transgender issue", aks yourself why trans people are far more likely to be victims of crimes and harrassement than cis people (https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/), why trans people have worse access to healthcare (https://www.kff.org/health-reform/issue-brief/demographics-insurance-coverage-and-access-to-care-among-transgender-adults/), why they are at higher risk for suicide (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7011156/).

I'm sorry that you think Walshs movie is a legitimate documentary and not see it for just another puzzle-piece in the "Conservative"'s hatred of non-heteronormative people.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 02, 2023, 19:30

I'm not a medical or psychological expert, but there appear to be real questions from experts in those fields that are suggesting there are known, permanent adverse health effects from prescribing puberty blockers, and there are no known studies that fully present an adequate consideration of the risks.

Yes, which is why you shouldn't consult a TV production produced by a right-wing crook on a right-wing network for answers.
Here's a list of statements by actual reputable medical associations and organizations:
https://transhealthproject.org/resources/medical-organization-statements/

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 02, 2023, 19:30

I certainly feel for trans individuals that have to deal with idiots harassing them.

I don't think that asking questions about what is best for children is somehow responsible for that harassment, and there was nothing about Matt Walsh's disposition toward trans individuals in the documentary that made me feel that that was the intent (he actually talks to trans individuals directly and the conversations appeared very respectful).

I'm not sure why you mentioned Ian Miles Chong--he had nothing to do with the production of Matt Walsh's documentary and I didn't reference him. Are you referring to the entirely different topic of conversation regarding the NYC incident from weeks ago and tying it somehow to this discussion?

With regards to history, from what I've read there is an actual legitimate concern with the long-term health effects of puberty blockers (https://accpjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jac5.1691), and there is a legitimate question with applying the treatment as a "salve" whenever a minor questions their gender. European countries have reversed course and are now calling for more data before relying on hormone blockers.

It would be particularly tragic if we ended up permanently and adversely affecting the health of minors because they were presented with a false dichotomy of either taking puberty blockers or dying.

I'm not a medical or psychological expert, but there appear to be real questions from experts in those fields that are suggesting there are known, permanent adverse health effects from prescribing puberty blockers, and there are no known studies that fully present an adequate consideration of the risks.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "protect trans kids" when what you appear to be saying is "this shouldn't be discussed."

The only thing that isn't up for discussion is the validity of the lives of real people, Stefan's sources sum it up best.

So many of my friends are queer and I'm witnessing this shit in real time, for crooks like Matt Walsh and all these other right wing grifters to prey on an already vulnerable group of people is unbelievably egregious. The last thing they should have to do is justify their existence...period.

 I said what I said. Protect Trans Kids.

Quote from: Stefan on Jun 02, 2023, 19:32

This whole bigotry from the so-called conservatives is so laughable, since it's the very same people who argue that oh they care so much for the children, at the same time want firearms to be handed out basically like candy. Thoughts and prayers I guess.
And, while they dream up their conspiracy narrative of LGBTQ groomer culture, are often pretty silent when it comes to the countless abuse scandals in religious groups.

Ntm how many conservatives are actually predatory themselves (Matt Walsh especially)

https://www.mediamatters.org/matt-walsh/majority-report-sam-seder-cites-media-matters-research-argue-matt-walsh-fixated-bit

https://twitter.com/theserfstv/status/1595244230200688641
 
This is what I mean when I say "wrong side of history" because they don't care about our children, not at all, this is the type of stuff that should be fought against and denounced

Quote from: Stefan on Jun 02, 2023, 19:32

This whole bigotry from the so-called conservatives is so laughable, since it's the very same people who argue that oh they care so much for the children, at the same time want firearms to be handed out basically like candy. Thoughts and prayers I guess.
And, while they dream up their conspiracy narrative of LGBTQ groomer culture, are often pretty silent when it comes to the countless abuse scandals in religious groups.
They care about the children? Gender-Affirming care acutally reduces suicide risk among non-heteronormative youth (https://www.hcplive.com/view/suicide-risk-reduces-73-transgender-nonbinary-youths-gender-affirming-care). It's not about protecting children, it's about denying neccessary healthcare.

The laughable idea that their bathroom bills are about protecting women from harrassment (lol, men do that all the time, no one ever felt the need to dress up for that), while in reality, it leads to women getting harrassed for using the bathroom (https://www.vox.com/2016/5/18/11690234/women-bathrooms-harassment). It's not about protecting women from harrassment, it's about denying people access to the public space who don't conform with white supremacists ideas of how women should look like.

Btw, in case you think there are any legitimate questions raised by Matt Walsh in this movie, here's an extensive fact-check on his pseudoscientific hit-piece: https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/in-what-is-a-woman-matt-walsh-asks-a-question/

If you are generally curious about the "transgender issue", aks yourself why trans people are far more likely to be victims of crimes and harrassement than cis people (https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/), why trans people have worse access to healthcare (https://www.kff.org/health-reform/issue-brief/demographics-insurance-coverage-and-access-to-care-among-transgender-adults/), why they are at higher risk for suicide (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7011156/).

I'm sorry that you think Walshs movie is a legitimate documentary and not see it for just another puzzle-piece in the "Conservative"'s hatred of non-heteronormative people.

Uggh. I'm not here to defend this documentary. This is awkward.

But I assure you--if we understand Michael Moore (Bowling for Columbine (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0310793/reference/); Sicko (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0386032/reference/)) to be a documentary filmmaker, so is Matt Walsh.

The link you provided supposedly debunking the entire documentary is neither exhaustive nor is it anything other than a presentation of competing opinions. For instance the question of "chemical castration" or discussing the administration of the drug "lupron" isn't anywhere to be found there.

In the documentary, Matt Walsh interviewed legitimate sources, and he wasn't sitting there belittling and undermining professionals that held opinions contrary to his own.

The bathroom bills are bullshit--there are already laws that protect people from harm in bathrooms, and I don't think it's actually going to provide any sort of meaningful changes. But I don't live in those states and I don't vote for those legislators.

With regard to the question of violence against trans individuals, the claim of rising violence against anyone falling into the LGBTQ+ communities has been around for many decades, at least.

I remember in particular the story of Matthew Shepard (https://www.matthewshepard.org/about-us/our-story/), whose murder in 1998 was used as evidence to show the rising violence toward gay individuals. The story was that Shepard was attacked and tied to a fence post, leaving him there to die, because he was gay.

What actually happened, however, is a matter of some controversy, and one individual who investigated Shepard's death concluded that it was actually a drug deal gone wrong (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/26/the-truth-behind-americas-most-famous-gay-hate-murder-matthew-shepard).

I'm skeptical of the claims of rising violence toward trans individuals, but I nonetheless can understand the concern.

The other issues you cited to aren't new, and they're discussed in the documentary.

Quote from: Stefan on Jun 02, 2023, 19:56

Yes, which is why you shouldn't consult a TV production produced by a right-wing crook on a right-wing network for answers.
Here's a list of statements by actual reputable medical associations and organizations:
https://transhealthproject.org/resources/medical-organization-statements/

How about a left-leaning publication? Will you trust that source?

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2023/04/gender-affirming-care-debate-europe-dutch-protocol/673890/

i'm glad that we can agree that the hatred of trans people result in cruel and harmful policies.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 02, 2023, 20:26

The link you provided supposedly debunking the entire documentary is neither exhaustive nor is it anything other than a presentation of competing opinions.

No. Absolutely not. This is not a matter of competing opinions. The author of the blob is an acutal medical expert in exactly the field he writes about:

Quote

AJ Eckert (https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/author/ajeckert/)
Dr. AJ Eckert, D.O. (they/he) is the Medical Director of Anchor Health's Gender & Life-Affirming Medicine (GLAM) Program and Assistant Clinical Professor of Family Medicine at Frank H. Netter MD School of Medicine at Quinnipiac University. Dr. Eckert has been involved in LGBTQ health care for over sixteen years, with nine years of experience as a provider of primary and preventative care and gender-affirming services, including hormone treatment and puberty blockers. Outside of their clinical work with patients, Dr. Eckert is active in education and advocacy and a classically trained concert pianist.

Walsh has absolutely zero medical credentials or training. None.
About the documentary: Here's a thing many people are not aware of: popular media (movies, books, articles, podcasts) about scientific topics, have, in many cases, absolutely zero peer review or fact checking. They tell a story in a way that is convincing to the target audience of lay people, i.e. people who can not put the information presented in context. I am simply not able to assess if what the movie is telling me is credible or full of shit.
This is why it's always important to set the information in proper context. Does the movie or book largely align with scientific organizations and professional (field-specific) science journalism? If yes, then the work is probably a good, accessible piece of information on that topic. If not, be very cautious.
Walsh makes no secret of his disdain for trans people. There is absolutely no reason to think that he made this movie with good intentions of carefully portraying a scientific debate.

Quote from: Stefan on Jun 02, 2023, 21:03

i'm glad that we can agree that the hatred of trans people result in cruel and harmful policies.
No. Absolutely not. This is not a matter of competing opinions. The author of the blob is an acutal medical expert in exactly the field he writes about:
Walsh has absolutely zero medical credentials or training. None.
About the documentary: Here's a thing many people are not aware of: popular media (movies, books, articles, podcasts) about scientific topics, have, in many cases, absolutely zero peer review. They tell a story in a way that is convincing to the target audience of lay people, i.e. people who can not put the information presented in context. I am simply not able to assess if what the movie is telling me is credible or full of shit.
This is why it's always important to set the information in proper context. Does the movie or book largely align with scientific organizations and professional (field-specific) science journalism? If yes, then the work is probably a good, accessible piece of information on that topic. If not, be very cautious.
Walsh makes no secret of his disdain for trans people. There is absolutely no reason to think that he made this movie with good intentions of carefully portraying a scientific debate.

I'm glad that we can agree that the source you cited neither acknowledged nor addressed the use of the drug lupron in gender-affirming care for children, and that it is indeed a concern regardless of the political leanings or controversy of the source of the concern.

I'm also glad we can acknowledge our lay-person understanding of these issues and rely on the experts to sort this issue out so that we don't end up allowing harm to our children while we try to prevent harm to trans children.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 02, 2023, 21:20

I'm glad that we can agree that the source you cited neither acknowledged nor addressed the use of the drug lupron in gender-affirming care for children, and that it is indeed a concern regardless of the political leanings or controversy of the source of the concern.

I'm also glad we can acknowledge our lay-person understanding of these issues and rely on the experts to sort this issue out so that we don't end up allowing harm to our children while we try to prevent harm to trans children.

If Matt Walsh is your example of an expert then pity doesn't begin to describe what I have for you

Quote from: hstn on Jun 02, 2023, 21:27

If Matt Walsh is your example of an expert then pity doesn't begin to describe what I have for you

What? Where did you get "expert" out of "Conservative pundit"?

The experts in the documentary and the experts cited by others clearly disagree.

The whole point of posting about this was the fact that this doc was labeled as containing "hateful conduct," and if we're seeing coverage of an actual debate among experts, the label is inaccurate and we should allow this topic to be discussed.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 02, 2023, 21:20

I'm glad that we can agree that the source you cited neither acknowledged nor addressed the use of the drug lupron in gender-affirming care for children, and that it is indeed a concern regardless of the political leanings or controversy of the source of the concern.

I'm also glad we can acknowledge our lay-person understanding of these issues and rely on the experts to sort this issue out so that we don't end up allowing harm to our children while we try to prevent harm to trans children.

But apparently you somehow thought that Matt Walsh presented a reasonable report on these matters instead of being an anti-trans hit peace (or why did you bring it up here in the first place?)
I can't and won't go into any specific claims , but in the review I posted an expert wrote extensively about many, many cases of misinformation in this movie. That doesn't mean that everything presented there is necessarily wrong, but that the movie cannont be trusted as a reliable piece of information on the matter it claims to report on. If a claimed documentary is wrong about so many things it is either careless or it intentionally skews the information in order to convince you of something.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 02, 2023, 21:31

The whole point of posting about this was the fact that this doc was labeled as containing "hateful conduct," and if we're seeing coverage of an actual debate among experts, the label is inaccurate and we should allow this topic to be discussed.

I'm sorry, if you look at the horrible debate about trans rights and healthcare in the US and fail to see how a movie that poses as a documentary while deliberately presenting misinformation is simply a hit-piece meant to fuel/re-inforce hatred, then I can't help you.

Quote from: hstn on Jun 02, 2023, 20:02

The only thing that isn't up for discussion is the validity of the lives of real people, Stefan's sources sum it up best.

So many of my friends are queer and I'm witnessing this shit in real time, for crooks like Matt Walsh and all these other right wing grifters to prey on an already vulnerable group of people is unbelievably egregious. The last thing they should have to do is justify their existence...period.

 I said what I said. Protect Trans Kids.

I think you need to take a closer look.

The first of the links provided on the website Stefan referenced is the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, which has this to say about treatment in children with gender dysphoria:

"Given the lack of empirical evidence from randomized, controlled trials of the efficacy of treatment aimed at eliminating gender discordance, the potential risks of treatment, and longitudinal evidence that gender discordance persists in only a small minority of untreated cases arising in childhood, further research is needed on predictors of persistence and desistence of childhood gender discordance as well as the long-term risks and benefits of intervention before any treatment to eliminate gender discordance can be endorsed."

When it comes to adolescents, here's the suggested course:

"Further research is needed to definitively establish the effectiveness and acceptability of these treatment approaches."

So, forgive me, I'm just a lay person here. But what this sounds like is the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry explicitly does not endorse treatment for gender dysphoria in children, and also that treatment for gender dysphoria in adolescents is something that they are requiring more research before endorsing.

Yet, if you take a look at the website that Steven linked to, it states, "Leading medical groups recognize the medical necessity of treatments for gender dysphoria and endorse such treatments."

I would love it if an actual expert could weigh in but this sounds like the link Stefan provided is, knowingly or unknowingly, spreading misinformation.

Stefan do you want to weigh in on this?

I posted a link above from an acutal medical professional who works in the very specific field who goes into many false claims in Walshs movie, and you thought of this as a "contrary opinion", just because a single claim wasn't mentioned in the fact-check.

Why would it even matter to you if I weigh in?

Quote from: Stefan on Jun 02, 2023, 22:12

I posted a link above from an acutal medical professional who works in the very specific field who goes into many false claims in Walshs movie, and you thought of this as a "contrary opinion", just because a single claim wasn't mentioned in the fact-check.

Why would it even matter to you if I weigh in?

I apologize--I thought we were both concerned about misinformation.

Do you want me to fact-check your fact-checker beyond the one example? That took about 30 seconds to find the one.

I'm not discrediting your source but I am certainly challenging your characterization of the source that it "completely debunks" the documentary. Your source accurately characterizes this discussion as a disagreement among experts.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 02, 2023, 22:35

I'm not discrediting your source but I am certainly challenging your characterization of the source that it "completely debunks" the documentary. Your source accurately characterizes this discussion as a disagreement among experts.

I'm sorry what?

Quote

In the end, Walsh is no more an expert on gender than Jenny McCarthy is on vaccines (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/biosoc.2015.30) or Ben Stein is on evolution; all are lay people invoking bad science to support their ideologies. With his film, Walsh clearly did not set out to honestly seek answers to a perplexing question, even if they are complex. Instead, he started with a conclusion and then sought out sources to support that conclusion, no matter how dubious the source, making this film an exercise not in honest truth-seeking but rather motivated reasoning. In making this film, Walsh not-coincidentally fueled the flames of conservative pundits and internet trolls to further mock and degrade trans people using fake experts (https://www.climatechangecommunication.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Cook_2020_deconstructing_denial.pdf), bad science, false equivalences, conspiracy theories, and blatantly false claims to reach his predetermined conclusion. We fear that  will still be used by anti-trans activists five and ten years from now, just as  and  are still used today by, respectively, antivaccine activists to demonize vaccines and creationists to attack Darwin. That's because  is an example of the same tool that antivaxxers, creationists, and other science-denying conspiracy theorists use to promote their messages.

Quote from: Stefan on Jun 02, 2023, 22:40

I'm sorry what?

Did you miss the part where the author compared sources and pitted experts discussing this issue?

That was accurate.

The part you quoted there at the end is nonsense.

This is exactly the part where an expert concludes that this movie is a motivated hate piece. As far as I know that was your starting point, that you doubted this is a hate piece.
The movie is not a reliable source or reporting about any actual medical discussion. I do not deny that there are actual scientific and medical discussions on that topic. But Walsh and other "conservatives" have no interest in portraying a fair and balanced view. They'll present any discussion in a way to justify their political and social goals of denying healthcare access for trans people, just as they cook up conspiracy narratives about groomer culture to justify access to public space.

Quote from: Stefan on Jun 02, 2023, 22:59

This is exactly the part where an expert concludes that this movie is a motivated hate piece. As far as I know that was your starting point, that you doubted this is a hate piece.
The movie is not a reliable source or reporting about any actual medical discussion.

We do differ on our understanding of hate, yes.

And apparently we place different values on being able to discuss pressing issues that directly affect our children.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 02, 2023, 23:14

We do differ on our understanding of hate, yes.

And apparently we place different values on being able to discuss pressing issues that directly affect our children.

It's genuinely concerning you don't consider any of that hate, conservatives do not care about logic and facts no matter how much you think they do

Matt Walsh just "asking questions" isn't trying to shine a light on anything except giving themselves a platform for their bigotry...you can deflect and try to circle around what is said here all you want but this is what's happening, I'm witnessing it right in front of my own eyes

You want laypeople to bow out of discussion on trans issues, yet when given sources that debunk much of what conservative pundits (who are also laypeople when it comes to trans issues), you refuse to believe it and would rather circumvent the idea

All this documentary provided was more fuel for hatred in this country, hatred based on false science, ideas, theories that would likely put more of our children in harms way than ANY trans person or drag queen could cause

Matt Walsh is not an expert on trans issues or protecting children any more than a Catholic priest is on trans issues and ESPECIALLY protecting children, and I pity you for falling for those traps

If you or they value children that much, why isn't anything being done about mass shootings, cuts to education, even book bans by the same people turning queer people into predators? THOSE issues are what concerns the general American, not a trans person just trying to exist in society without fearing for their lives

This is blatant transphobia whether you choose to accept it or not

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 02, 2023, 23:14

And apparently we place different values on being able to discuss pressing issues that directly affect our children.

A pressing issue that endangers children in the US would be gun violence, for instance. Or access to healthcare and social security in general.
Conservatives blatantly ignore the harm that's happening there. And somehow, I now should expect that they have an honest interest in childrens wellbeing? The very same people who brought up the very same argument (we must protect the children) when it came to deny basic civil rights for gay people?

Quote from: Stefan on Jun 02, 2023, 23:37

A pressing issue that endangers children in the US would be gun violence, for instance. Or access to healthcare and social security in general.
Conservatives blatantly ignore the harm that's happening there. And somehow, I now should expect that they have an honest interest in childrens wellbeing?

It seems like we should be able to talk about both. They're all issues that deserve attention.

Looks like Twitter backed down on the "Hateful Content" label, by the way.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 02, 2023, 23:50

It seems like we should be able to talk about both. They're all issues that deserve attention.

Looks like Twitter backed down on the "Hateful Content" label, by the way.

Because their owner (who has a trans daughter) wants to keep engaging in this rhetoric, he's the richest fascist alive

To a point Twitter's head of trust and safety resigned as a result of Elon backing down on the label...

And well we're not talking about both because you're focusing on the absolute non issue that is the existence of trans people!

Any issues/fear mongering that Matt Walsh and co. try to push IS that, fear mongering, no more different than the gay panic we spent decades trying to fight

Great, talk about it. I just fail to see how a hit-piece by a trans hater is relevant to the discussion.

Quote from: hstn on Jun 02, 2023, 23:30

It's genuinely concerning you don't consider any of that hate, conservatives do not care about logic and facts no matter how much you think they do

Matt Walsh just "asking questions" isn't trying to shine a light on anything except giving themselves a platform for their bigotry...you can deflect and try to circle around what is said here all you want but this is what's happening, I'm witnessing it right in front of my own eyes

You want laypeople to bow out of discussion on trans issues, yet when given sources that debunk much of what conservative pundits (who are also laypeople when it comes to trans issues), you refuse to believe it and would rather circumvent the idea

All this documentary provided was more fuel for hatred in this country, hatred based on false science, ideas, theories that would likely put more of our children in harms way than ANY trans person or drag queen could cause

Matt Walsh is not an expert on trans issues or protecting children any more than a Catholic priest is on trans issues and ESPECIALLY protecting children, and I pity you for falling for those traps

If you or they value children that much, why isn't anything being done about mass shootings, cuts to education, even book bans by the same people turning queer people into predators? THOSE issues are what concerns the general American, not a trans person just trying to exist in society without fearing for their lives

This is blatant transphobia whether you choose to accept it or not

It's ironic that you have a problem with simplistic characterizations of groups of people involving complex discussions, while simultaneously using the term "Conservative" and applying it to a definition of your choice in order to silence dissent.

Whether or not you choose to accept it, there are legitimate conversations the documentary brought up, and we should be able to discuss them, regardless of people's feelings.

So, you formed your opinion on those "legitimate concerns" on a movie that mostly contains motivated misinformation? Have you ever though about why they made the choice to produce it that way? If there's any legitimate concerns, why not just report on that and leave out all the other crap?

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 02, 2023, 23:14

We do differ on our understanding of hate, yes.

And apparently we place different values on being able to discuss pressing issues that directly affect our children.

This is not my conversation, but I am reading along.

I will ask this question. What exactly do you mean by "our children"? Do you have children? Do you have children who seem to be developing non-traditional traits and suspect they will have a more difficult life as a young person facing the typical American hate received by the LGTBQ+ community? Do you have a child who is asking questions about transition and/or going through this very difficult, confusing, and terrifying emotional experience?

Because if you don't, you really need to back off the "our" children angle. They are not your children, and if you don't see a "documentary" such as this motivated by a position of further discrimination and control, you certainly don't get to speak for the parents and kids going through this.

And one more thing. Somewhere you clutched your pearls at the thought of "conservative" being used with a negative connotation. Let me make something crystal clear. People have the right to be as kind or hateful, intelligent or misinformed, or as religious or secular as they want. I don't like the hateful, the misinformed, or those who would write law by religion, which is why I am in favor of policies that support education, counseling, single-payer healthcare, and general equity for all people to make their own choices. I have never supported rules that people shouldn't go to church or find religion or wear red hats...but that is exactly the type of lawmaking we see from the conservative side of the aisle: determinations on how people they don't like should live their lives.

Conservatives want their kids and other people to follow THEIR guidelines and live the lives the conservatives want them to have. Non-conservatives want people to make their own choices and live in a way that is best for them. That is not a hard difference to understand.

I am not going to argue your opinion on the documentary or some of the data going back and forth. But I am going to suggest you stop thinking of them as 'our' kids if they are not 'your' kids, and I'll suggest that as one of the most educated members in the group regarding how the law works, please stop patronizing us on the harmlessness of conservatism, its policies, and its persuasion tactics.

@satur8: Thank you, that is incredibly well written

Amazing how even this forum is like everywhere else on the net - unable to discuss anything remotely difficult without resorting to name calling.
Sad, people, sad. 

I don't see any name calling here in this discussion?

I'm not sure if you know who Matt Walsh is, but if name calling bothers you, I'd recommend googling for some of his statements regarding queer and trans people. Maybe that will shine a light on why his claims of raising legitimate questions in good faith are dubious, to put it mildly. For what it's worth, he describes himself as a theocratic fascist (no name calling here, these are the actual ad verbatim words he uses).

This is what gender criticals and "asking questions" are sparking...luckily nobody was hurt but who knows how many WILL be in the future

https://www.liberation.fr/societe/police-justice/attaque-a-lexplosif-contre-le-centre-lgbt-de-tours-un-catholique-integriste-de-17-ans-en-garde-a-vue-20230601_HGS5HK37RVFU7FETUAMPA577QE/

Quote from: satur8 on Jun 03, 2023, 13:29

This is not my conversation, but I am reading along.

I will ask this question. What exactly do you mean by "our children"? Do you have children? Do you have children who seem to be developing non-traditional traits and suspect they will have a more difficult life as a young person facing the typical American hate received by the LGTBQ+ community? Do you have a child who is asking questions about transition and/or going through this very difficult, confusing, and terrifying emotional experience?

Because if you don't, you really need to back of the "our" children angle. They are not your children, and if you don't see a "documentary" such as this motivated by a position of further discrimination and control, you certainly don't get to speak for the parents and kids going through this.

And one more thing. Somewhere you clutched your pearls at the thought of "conservative" being used with a negative connotation. Let me make something crystal clear. People have the right to be as kind or hateful, intelligent or misinformed, or as religious or secular as they want. I don't like the hateful, the misinformed, or those who would write law by religion, which is why I am in favor of policies that support education, counseling, single-payer healthcare, and general equity for all people to make their own choices. I have never supported rules that people shouldn't go to church or find religion or wear red hats...but that is exactly the type of lawmaking we see from the conservative side of the aisle: determinations on how people they don't like should live their lives.

Conservatives want their kids and other people to follow THEIR guidelines and live the lives the conservatives want them to have. Non-conservatives want people to make their own choices and live in a way that is best for them. That is not a hard difference to understand.

I am not going to argue your opinion on the documentary or some of the data going back and forth. But I am going to suggest you stop thinking of them as 'our' kids if they are not 'your' kids, and I'll suggest that as one of the most educated members in the group regarding how the law works, please stop patronizing us on the harmlessness of conservatism, its policies, and its persuasion tactics.

This is really fucking simple.

Let's allow full discussion of trans issues so we don't end up giving children drugs that will give them cancer in 10 years, or osteoporosis, or *some other unknown side effect* because the drugs that are used for the purpose of chemical castration may not be the most suitable for dealing with gender dysphoria,  and have not been properly studied.

Let's allow discussion of this so that we don't unnecessarily cause harm to our children because they're having an incredibly difficult adolescence.

Let's make sure parents (I'm one, by the way), who just want to support their children, don't get talked into making permanent, life-altering decisions for their children because someone mistakenly tells them that nothing will happen.

And let's allow this discussion to happen regardless of whether or not people understand the discussion as "transphobic."

You're not reading along--you're ignoring what suits you.

Europe has reversed its position on using puberty-blockers in children for gender-affirming care (https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2023/04/gender-affirming-care-debate-europe-dutch-protocol/673890/); American medical associations, such as this one (https://www.jaacap.org/article/S0890-8567(12)00500-X/fulltext), do not endorse treatment of gender dysphoria in children or adolescents; and professionals in the gender-affirming-care industry (https://nypost.com/2023/02/09/whistleblower-lifts-lid-on-st-louis-kids-gender-clinic/) have come out with horror stories and warnings about an agenda being pushed on children that supports the industry (https://www.city-journal.org/article/texas-childrens-hospital-whistleblower-speaks-out).

And just as you continue to irrationally fixate on the possible idea of hate toward a minor questioning their gender, I'll continue to endorse discussion of the reality of the actual procedures and treatments children may seek because people on the Internet tell them that it's salvation for their maladies of identity.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 03, 2023, 19:37

And let's allow this discussion to happen regardless of whether or not people understand the discussion as "transphobic."

No. You started this conversation by bringing up a pseudo-documentary about trans healthcare made by someone who makes no secret of his hatred for trans people. That is absolutely relevant to any information presented there.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 03, 2023, 19:37

You're not reading along--you're ignoring what suits you.

Oh, you mean like when you focused on one statement from one organization, but choose to ignored the statements from all the other 29 organizations from the link I posted?
Speaking of this statement, from the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, those guidelines linked to are from 2012.
Here's a much more recent statement (2019) from this very same medical organization, which couldn't be more stronger in its words:
https://www.aacap.org/AACAP/Latest_News/AACAP_Statement_Responding_to_Efforts-to_ban_Evidence-Based_Care_for_Transgender_and_Gender_Diverse.aspx

Quote

The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry (AACAP) supports the use of current evidence-based clinical care with minors. AACAP strongly opposes any efforts – legal, legislative, and otherwise – to block access to these recognized interventions. Blocking access to timely care has been shown to increase youths' risk for suicidal ideation and other negative mental health outcomes. Consistent with AACAP's policy against conversion therapy (2), AACAP recommends that youth and their families formulate an individualized treatment plan with their clinician that addresses the youth's unique mental health needs under the premise that all gender identities and expressions are not inherently pathological.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 03, 2023, 19:37

Europe has reversed its position on using puberty-blockers in children for gender-affirming care (https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2023/04/gender-affirming-care-debate-europe-dutch-protocol/673890/)

No, Wrong. Europe does not have a position on gender-affirming care, because it's a continent. There is no European statement that could be reversed. What the article talks about is that some countries in Europe are currently in the process of revising their guidelines. The article also highlights the starc contrast to the situation in the US:

Quote

No legal prohibitions have been put in place in Europe, as they have been in more than a dozen U.S. states, where physicians risk losing their medical license or facing criminal sanctions for prescribing certain forms of gender-affirming care.

The researchers consulted by the journalist have this to say:

Quote

But the trend toward more conservative application of the Dutch protocol is likely to have real effects in European countries, in terms of which kids get treatment, and of what kind. Louise Frisén, an associate professor at Karolinska Institute and a pediatric psychiatrist at the child and adolescent mental-health clinic in Stockholm, Sweden, told me she worries that under her country's new guidelines, many of her teenage patients will find it harder to access medical care. The benefits of treatment are clear, she said, and she further claimed that the policy change has caused anguish for some patients who are panicking at the looming prospect of puberty.

As for de Vries, when I spoke with her a few weeks before the article in de Volkskrant was published, she agreed that clinicians should be cautious, but not to the point where treatment becomes inaccessible. Outcomes for those with later-onset dysphoria do need to be investigated further, she acknowledged, but "if we are going to wait 'til the highest-standard medical evidence provides us the answers, we will have to stop altogether." In that sense, Europe's brewing disagreement over treatment could turn into paralysis. "That's what worries me," she said. "You will always have to work with uncertainties in this field."

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 03, 2023, 19:37

professionals in the gender-affirming-care industry (https://nypost.com/2023/02/09/whistleblower-lifts-lid-on-st-louis-kids-gender-clinic/)

You might want to read follow-ups (https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/st-louis-gender-clinic-accusations-unsubstantiated-internal-investigat-rcna81233) to this case (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/03/jamie-reeds-claims-about-transgender-care-are-under-fire.html).

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 03, 2023, 19:37

warnings about an agenda being pushed on children that supports the industry (https://www.city-journal.org/article/texas-childrens-hospital-whistleblower-speaks-out).

In the last paragraph, the doctor alleged that there's no evidence that gender-affirming care has beneficial effects on mental health.
That is not true, not remotely. There is a (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35212746/) very robust (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32220906/) body of (https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(21)00568-1/fulltext) evidence (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6212091/) to support (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7073269/) beneficial mental health effects (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32220906/) of gender-affirming (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32368216/) care (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423). There is even an extensive systematic review (https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/) which comes to the following conclusion:

Quote

This search found a robust international consensus in the peer-reviewed literature that gender transition, including medical treatments such as hormone therapy and surgeries, improves the overall well-being of transgender individuals. The literature also indicates that greater availability of medical and social support for gender transition contributes to better quality of life for those who identify as transgender.

If this medical professional is omiting this research, which is directly relevant to the topic he's talking about, he's either grossly negligent/incompetent or outright lying. Either way, not somebody who should be trusted.

Quote from: Stefan on Jun 04, 2023, 18:19

No. You started this conversation by bringing up a pseudo-documentary about trans healthcare made by someone who makes no secret of his hatred for trans people. That is absolutely relevant to any information presented there.

Oh, you mean like when you focused on one statement from one organization, but choose to ignored the statements from all the other 29 organizations from the link I posted?
Speaking of this statement, from the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, those guidelines linked to are from 2012.
Here's a much more recent statement (2019) from this very same medical organization, which couldn't be more stronger in its words:
https://www.aacap.org/AACAP/Latest_News/AACAP_Statement_Responding_to_Efforts-to_ban_Evidence-Based_Care_for_Transgender_and_Gender_Diverse.aspxNo, Wrong. Europe does not have a position on gender-affirming care, because it's a continent. There is no European statement that could be reversed. What the article talks about is that some countries in Europe are currently in the process of revising their guidelines. The article also highlights the starc contrast to the situation in the US:The researchers consulted by the journalist have this to say:
You might want to read follow-ups (https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/st-louis-gender-clinic-accusations-unsubstantiated-internal-investigat-rcna81233) to this case (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/03/jamie-reeds-claims-about-transgender-care-are-under-fire.html).
In the last paragraph, the doctor alleged that there's no evidence that gender-affirming care has beneficial effects on mental health.
That is not true, not remotely. There is a (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35212746/) very robust (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32220906/) body of (https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(21)00568-1/fulltext) evidence (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6212091/) to support (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7073269/) beneficial mental health effects (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32220906/) of gender-affirming (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32368216/) care (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423). There is even an extensive systematic review (https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/) which comes to the following conclusion:
If this medical professional is omiting this research, which is directly relevant to the topic he's talking about, he's either grossly negligent or outright lying. Either way, not somebody who should be trusted.

I posted about the documentary What Is A Woman because Twitter was heavily restricting it. I'm mostly interested in speech issues, especially when it involves suppression of speech surrounding an important topic.

This clearly triggered you. Get the fuck over it.

With regard to Europe--you're correct. Should have read "countries in Europe reversed course on gender-affirming care."

Now let's the both of us with our no medical degrees stop debating the particulars. I was literally using a source you provided and you're saying "no not that source!"

Thank you for discussing this.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 04, 2023, 18:47

Now let's the both of us with our no medical degrees stop debating the particulars. I was literally using a source you provided and you're saying "no not that source!"

No, I did not say that. I said that you choose one source out of 30 provided, and that that very same medical organization published a much more recent statement.

If this doesn't make it any more evident how Matt Walsh and co.'s pseudoscience is bringing harm to the lives of queer people I don't know what will...we're in a state of emergency, but no gotta hear both sides and pretend to care about the children

https://www.hrc.org/campaigns/national-state-of-emergency-for-lgbtq-americans
https://twitter.com/brenonade/status/1666254423096455168

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbOt2tZygcg&t=89s

Is that the same school? 

Quote from: sandelic on Jun 07, 2023, 10:57

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbOt2tZygcg&t=89s

Is that the same school?

and what's your point? setting aside this has nothing to do with what i just posted...

students weren't the aggressors, the anti-LGBTQ extremists and cops were...

No point, just a question. 
Should I refrain from asking them, since you so obviously don't like them? 

@sandelic, you asked a question that seemed unrelated to anything discussed here.

I would also like to ask all of you to keep it civil in here and try to not simply make rhetorical, provocative,confrontational statements. If there's no way of having a healthy discussion, I'm either forced to close this topic or leave this place.

I googled that school and video I posted came up.
Since it's 5 years old video and I know USA have many schools with same name but not in the same place, I was genuinely curious if that was the same school. 

I'm sorry if my post upset anyone. 

Quote from: Csar on Jun 07, 2023, 20:02

@sandelic, you asked a question that seemed unrelated to anything discussed here.

I would also like to ask all of you to keep it civil in here and try to not simply make rhetorical, provocative,confrontational statements. If there's no way of having a healthy discussion, I'm either forced to close this topic or leave this place.

Are you fucking kidding me?

Sandelic asked whether a video depicting violence among high school students was related to the video hstn posted.

It was not an irrelevant line of inquiry, and this could help to inform context of the conflict going on in Glendale.

For what it's worth, some of my family is actually a part of Glendale Unified School District, and there have been huge issues with very vocal, right-leaning, potentially violent parents.

It was surprising to me to hear but seeing these videos it starts to make sense. There are apparently large minority groups in Glendale that sometimes are at odds with one another, and talking about context is certainly important.

With all due respect, Csar, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Someone asking a question is not a basis to even *consider* prohibiting someone from posting here, and absolutely not a basis to shut down all political discussion.

Get the fuck over yourself.

Quote from: sandelic on Jun 07, 2023, 20:31

I googled that school and video I posted came up.
Since it's 5 years old video and I know USA have many schools with same name but not in the same place, I was genuinely curious if that was the same school.

I'm sorry if my post upset anyone.

Sorry, I wasn't aware this was related as it wasn't apparent to me immediately. I have to apologize.

Quote from: sandelic on Jun 07, 2023, 20:31

I googled that school and video I posted came up.
Since it's 5 years old video and I know USA have many schools with same name but not in the same place, I was genuinely curious if that was the same school.

I'm sorry if my post upset anyone.

In that case yeah it is the same place, I just wasn't sure why specifically that event was called back to, felt iffy given the displays of aggression from what I posted

My bad if I jumped the gun a bit, too many people tend to be quick to portray protestors on the left as  aggressors

Quote from: Csar on Jun 07, 2023, 21:08

Sorry, I wasn't aware this was related as it wasn't apparent to me immediately. I have to apologize.

No, I have to.

I originally wanted to write what MadPooter wrote since that was my line of thinking, seeing how issues within that community obviously runs deeper than recent events but I was afraid to make an ass out of myself if that was not the same school.

I must admit I got triggered by hstn's post and resorted to thinly vailed sarcasm, which is unbecoming and I must apologize to hstn and all you here, and for that you were right to step in.
 
And I'm still not sure if that's the same school. I assume it is?

Ah, hstn just said it is. Thank you.

Quote from: Csar on Jun 07, 2023, 21:08

Sorry, I wasn't aware this was related as it wasn't apparent to me immediately. I have to apologize.

My apologies for dropping the f-bomb unnecessarily. I too need to calm down.

Rename thread "the thunderdome"

and @MadPooter calm down, not everything is an infringement on free speech. Though your original angle was undermined (on this forum), you've brought up valid concerns on trans discussion.



Let us remember this is forum to celebrate music and share some fun memories . I refuse to point the finger at those who, out of their own goodwill and time, helped carry the original forum to The Next Generation.

Csar, you're doing fine.


Back to your battle stations...

Wow, I wish the real world could resolve issues like this group. In the end, there may still be levels of disagreement or even frustration, but you guys went directly for problem resolution once things boiled over and that's pretty damn cool.

Quote from: satur8 on Jun 08, 2023, 13:37

Wow, I wish the real world could resolve issues like this group. In the end, there may still be levels of disagreement or even frustration, but you guys went directly for problem resolution once things boiled over and that's pretty damn cool.

I treat all conversations here with the "Vegas Rule," i.e., what happens in the Discussions on Difficult Subjects thread stays in the Discussions on Difficult Subjects thread.

And, honestly, this is how I treat most conversations concerning politics in real life, too. I have to.

I represent clients with politics from across the spectrum--one guy was even an actual white supremacist (who was referred to me by a Jewish colleague)--and I have to divorce peoples' politics from their legal positions.

Just because someone may have radical political beliefs (in any direction) doesn't mean I can't be an effective lawyer for them.

And just because someone may have radically different political beliefs from my own doesn't mean I won't have a conversation in the future with them, either.

Is it safe to enter this thread? With something new(ish)?

https://twitter.com/RussInCheshire/status/1667263830768996373

EDIT: Gah, why aren't tweets embedding?

I'll just leave this here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/NoStupidQuestions/comments/145yimq/why_do_many_americans_emphasize_race_when_the/

Because...until it actually doesn't matter, there is a need to focus on the inequities. I have never been targeted or faced specific hurdles due to the color of my skin, and that is white privilege. People of color are profiled. People of color are incarcerated at a higher rate. People of color are viewed as "lesser" by people whose lifestyles show absolutely no sign of "superiority" whatsoever.

Look at how BLM was treated in the public eye as compared to the literal insurrection on the Capitol and beating/murder of law enforcement officers: yes, these extremists are facing their time in court, but I am talking about how every day middle America DISCUSSES these things when there are no people of color in the room. Look at how mass shooters are considered terrorists or thugs compared to lone wolves in the media and public opinion solely by the color of their skin. Look at how the letters C-R-T trigger people, without them even bothering to understand what Critical Race Theory is let alone understanding the historical systematic injustices and disadvantages to non-white people in this nation, or the whitewashing of America's dirty secrets for that matter. You do understand that poor black communities in geographically undesirable areas were designed on purpose, correct? You do understand how black veterans were treated as compared to white ones, correct? These things have a cumulative effect over time, and that is what CRT is about. It all is deeply rooted.

That's not to say people of any race or color don't have their prejudices or face hurdles, but if you're living in a world where everything is okay and no work needs to be done, particularly in America, you're living in a fantasy despite the benefit of your west coast / "left" coast advantage.

 I said it before and will say it again: you're one of the most educated people in the room. And as an attorney, you're skilled at wordplay and like to sound like the smartest person in the room to sway an argument, and you like to win. However, there is something to be said for empathy and using that intelligence to put yourself in the shoes of others, and sometimes that means literal losing. I'm not sure where your hot takes on race and trans children are coming from. Don't get me wrong. You're entitled to your reddit opinions or to "JUST ASK QUESTIONS" like Tucker Carlson, but it is fair for the rest of us to expect more from that "highly educated" demographic, right? Did a diversity meeting hurt your feelings or have you just discovered Joe Rogan or something?

Nest week on "Discussions of Difficult Subjects"...Pooter tackles the dirty, lazy homeless and their blight on the Bay Area.

EDIT: And before you reveal that this was left here without an opinion stated and that you are "just putting it out there", your intention to fire up the board again is clear. We are not stupid.

I think reddit is the worst when coming to discussions like this. Not because of what is discussed, but because of time wasted. It's an always evolving subject and probably an unattainable goal, but one that's better striving for than always being at odds with people who might be different from you.

Satur8 mostly conveys my feelings towards inequities of race/ethnicity here in America and a good reason of why it's still emphasized. I think the best people can do is try to listen and understand in "real life" (not the internet) as much as possible.

Quote from: satur8 on Jun 13, 2023, 12:29

Because...until it actually doesn't matter, there is a need to focus on the inequities. I have never been targeted or faced specific hurdles due to the color of my skin, and that is white privilege. People of color are profiled. People of color are incarcerated at a higher rate. People of color are viewed as "lesser" by people whose lifestyles show absolutely no sign of "superiority" whatsoever.

Look at how BLM was treated in the public eye as compared to the literal insurrection on the Capitol and beating/murder of law enforcement officers: yes, these extremists are facing their time in court, but I am talking about how every day middle America DISCUSSES these things when there are no people of color in the room. Look at how mass shooters are considered terrorists or thugs compared to lone wolves in the media and public opinion solely by the color of their skin. Look at how the letters C-R-T trigger people, without them even bothering to understand what Critical Race Theory is let alone understanding the historical systematic injustices and disadvantages to non-white people in this nation, or the whitewashing of America's dirty secrets for that matter. You do understand that poor black communities in geographically undesirable areas were designed on purpose, correct? You do understand how black veterans were treated as compared to white ones, correct? These things have a cumulative effect over time, and that is what CRT is about. It all is deeply rooted.

That's not to say people of any race or color don't have their prejudices or face hurdles, but if you're living in a world where everything is okay and no work needs to be done, particularly in America, you're living in a fantasy despite the benefit of your west coast / "left" coast advantage.

 I said it before and will say it again: you're one of the most educated people in the room. And as an attorney, you're skilled at wordplay and like to sound like the smartest person in the room to sway an argument, and you like to win. However, there is something to be said for empathy and using that intelligence to put yourself in the shoes of others, and sometimes that means literal losing. I'm not sure where your hot takes on race and trans children are coming from. Don't get me wrong. You're entitled to your reddit opinions or to "JUST ASK QUESTIONS" like Tucker Carlson, but it is fair for the rest of us to expect more from that "highly educated" demographic, right? Did a diversity meeting hurt your feelings or have you just discovered Joe Rogan or something?

Nest week on "Discussions of Difficult Subjects"...Pooter tackles the dirty, lazy homeless and their blight on the Bay Area.

EDIT: And before you reveal that this was left here without an opinion stated and that you are "just putting it out there", your intention to fire up the board again is clear. We are not stupid.

Lovely rant.

I posted this because the question posted to /r/nostupidquestions was removed because it wasn't, apparently, asked "in good faith."

It's fine for people to post their opinions about racism, regardless of opinion; not being able to discuss your opinion or talk about an issue at all are where we have problems. I'm first and foremost a free speech advocate.

That seemed to be a fine question to ask, and I'm sure you would agree that it's a worthy topic of conversation. I mean, you just spent nearly 500 words dedicated to discussing the issue, right?

Oh--I have no idea how to solve the issue of homelessness in California. Governor Science already has spent $17 Billion, and $4 Billion more slated for expenditure this year (https://www.wsj.com/articles/california-homeless-population-oakland-wood-street-encampment-78d42cc3?st=mvhaugh38clvyuq&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink).

Sadly we aren't going to spend our way out of that problem, and I have no idea what to even start to do to in order to tackle that issue.

Pooter, I'd be more inclined to believe your concerns about free speech in the US if you'd get as riled up about for instance this (https://www.forbes.com/sites/petergreene/2022/02/16/teacher-anti-crt-bills-coast-to-coast-a-state-by-state-guide/?sh=35392c514ff6) or this (https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-04-22/book-bans-soaring-schools-new-laws-republican-states) or this (https://time.com/6273364/florida-dont-say-gay-expansion/) or this (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/12/tom-tillis-censure-gun-control-support-lgbtq-north-carolina) or this (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/zooey-zephyr-censured-montana-house-transgender-lawmaker/) or maybe this (https://www.businessinsider.com/free-speech-censorship-elon-musk-throttled-tweets-turkey-presidential-election-2023-5) or this (https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-05-24/under-elon-musk-twitter-has-approved-83-of-censorship-requests-by-authoritarian-governments.html).

Quote from: Stefan on Jun 13, 2023, 18:04

Pooter, I'd be more inclined to believe your concerns about free speech in the US if you'd get as riled up about for instance this (https://www.forbes.com/sites/petergreene/2022/02/16/teacher-anti-crt-bills-coast-to-coast-a-state-by-state-guide/?sh=35392c514ff6) or this (https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2023-04-22/book-bans-soaring-schools-new-laws-republican-states) or this (https://time.com/6273364/florida-dont-say-gay-expansion/) or this (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/12/tom-tillis-censure-gun-control-support-lgbtq-north-carolina) or this (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/zooey-zephyr-censured-montana-house-transgender-lawmaker/) or maybe this (https://www.businessinsider.com/free-speech-censorship-elon-musk-throttled-tweets-turkey-presidential-election-2023-5) or this (https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-05-24/under-elon-musk-twitter-has-approved-83-of-censorship-requests-by-authoritarian-governments.html).

It's almost like there are innumerable issues with free speech!

Thank you for referencing these. Happy to talk about any of them that you care to.

Was this supposed to be a "gotcha" moment or something?

Quick edit: You're making assumptions that I don't care about the links you referenced.

Are you requiring a certain level of discussion of what you determine to be free speech issues for anyone advocating free speech?

That seems to be the opposite of free speech--you're prescribing language usage for people and placing requirements on discussion.

So I have to ask: What's your point?

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 13, 2023, 17:09

Lovely rant.

Translation: " I'm first and foremost a free speech advocate", but if you call me out on my bullshit I'll straight up dismiss what you've said despite its merit.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 13, 2023, 17:09

I posted this because the question posted to /r/nostupidquestions was removed because it wasn't, apparently, asked "in good faith."

Well, it wasn't removed here even though it clearly wasn't asked "in good faith" because this group IS open to discussions. You're verbose but waited to play the victim. If you had an opinion, you could have started with that instead of stirring the pot while waiting for reactions. Again, nobody is falling for this BS.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 13, 2023, 18:55

Thank you for referencing these. Happy to talk about any of them that you care to.

But you didn't bring them up, did you? No, and you didn't plan to, either. Ever. As you "just ask the questions", you never once brought up any of these:

• Transgender Montana lawmaker Zooey Zephyr disciplined for remainder of 2023 session
• Republicans censure senator for backing LGBTQ+ rights and gun control
• What to Know About Florida's New 'Don't Say Gay' Rule That Bans Discussion of Gender for All Students
• Book bans are on the rise in U.S. schools, fueled by new laws in Republican-led states
• Teacher Anti-CRT Bills Coast To Coast: A State By State Guide
• Under Elon Musk, Twitter has approved 83% of censorship requests by authoritarian governments
• 'Free speech opportunist' Elon Musk caved to government pressure to censor tweets ahead of the Turkish election. Critics argue SpaceX dealings with the country's right-wing leader may have caused the reversal.

No, what you posted, with the coy tag "I'll just leave this here", was "Why do many Americans emphasize race, when the goal is for it to not matter?" and nothing more.

And this comes just days after the group put out the fire over your fear that "YOUR' transgender kids were in danger and that the conservatives who target them were a reasonable part of the solution. Oversimplified? Probably, but I wouldn't want to rant about it again.

Seriously, what is going on? This is indeed a thread to discuss difficult subjects, but what you're doing is immature trolling and then redirecting the blame to everyone who calls it out. It is not my intention to fuel negativity, but neutrality helps the oppressors, never the victims. We're all here for the music and the international fellowship, and we won't always agree, but dude, this is NOT a good look from an adult who has been here for ages.

And @Stefan....good  for you for pointing it like you did.

 

 @satur8 - Let me get this straight (sorry was I supposed to use a trigger warning with that word?) -- I post here about Reddit, hoping that people will notice how it's pretty lame that mods of a subreddit ostensibly devoted to answering all questions removes a question based on their opinion of whether or not the question is "asked in good faith."

Your response focused on the substance of the question being asked, and you didn't care that the question was removed. Fine.

I didn't disagree with the opinion in your response, and despite your claim I didn't dismiss it either. I didn't engage with it because I wanted to focus on what I see as a preliminary issue with even being able to have the discussion.

You seem to have now taken offense that I didn't cherish your words and congratulate you on being such a progressive thinker.

Well good on you for stating your opinion! I disagree but isn't that what is so wonderful about allowing people to have opinions? You and I can both disagree, but I hope that we both are willing to allow each other to speak our opinions despite our disagreement.

What I don't understand is the apparent incredulity with which you respond to the idea that I'm concerned about free speech, and that you're choosing for us which are the important free speech battles and which aren't.

What I also don't understand is your suggestion that by not posting about some free speech issues that you seem concerned about, that it means that I am unconcerned about those same issues, and that my concern about any free speech issues I post about lack any sort of merit.

I also don't understand how I'm portraying myself as a victim here, at all, in any sense of the word. I'm just trying to post about discussions that I see are necessary to have but get obfuscated behind political outrage.

I think you and @Stefan are both full of shit by trying to characterize my attempt at bringing up this discussion as lacking merit simply because other instances of free speech issues exist, and that I didn't discuss them in the way either of you wanted.

So with all due respect you both can fuck right off.

You both also engaged in ad hominem attacks, and it is absolutely unconstructive here. My apologies for the snarky comment regarding your progressive thought above, by the way.

See me as nothing more than a provocateur, fine. So be it. I disagree--I don't think I'm here just to trigger people and that's certainly not my intent.

I'll simply wrap this up by restating: Not allowing someone to ask a question is bullshit. And not allowing someone to ask that question because it brings up responses that are uncomfortable is doubly bullshit.

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 14, 2023, 01:25

See me as nothing more than a provocateur, fine. So be it. I disagree--I don't think I'm here just to trigger people and that's certainly not my intent.

(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1019358016329486431/1118355090630258699/image.png?width=846&height=38)
Oh of course you're clearly not a provocateur not at all

I'd add more to this but I've spoken my piece on trans rights and I have better stuff to do with my time than feed into whatever Pooter is trying to rile up the forum with, Stefan and satur8 are trying to point to legitimate issues while all you seem to be doing is peddling unnecessary discourse in this thread

Like...you're a grown person, why not act like it?

Not to go to that low a blow but stop trying to act like you're just asking questions and then getting upset when you're rightly called out for trying to cause yet another stir

 In terms of race btw it's hard for it to not matter when people of color are continually discriminated against in this country even now, it's embedded in the foundation of this country and it's plain ignorance to deny that, I'd ask for more sources but I'm not looking to be gaslit or told I have conspiracy theories when you've shown you won't even look at sources that disprove your own logic

Quote from: MadPooter on Jun 14, 2023, 01:25

I post here about Reddit, hoping that people will notice how it's pretty lame that mods of a subreddit ostensibly devoted to answering all questions removes a question based on their opinion of whether or not the question is "asked in good faith."
...
Your response focused on the substance of the question being asked, and you didn't care that the question was removed. Fine.

As a neutral(ish) person who didn't feel inclined to answer this "American" question, I'd just like to say how I perceived the way it was posted.
1) I didn't realise it was a link. I thought it was a screenshot which I therefore didn't think of clicking.
2) Pooter, if your main point was that it had been removed from Reddit, it would have been helpful (to me anyway) if you had said that in your original post. My honest thought was: Pooter is starting a new conversation and seeking responses on the subject of race in America.

With the words "I'll just leave this here" it never occurred to me that you were asking people to commment on the fact that a Reddit discucssion had been deleted. If that means I'm a bit 'slow', well so be it, but that was honestly my perception of your original post. I can understand if other people perceived it the same way.

I don't have any insightful comments to make on the subject matter (race in America), so I'll sit this one out. This is just about how I understood the original post.

PS as for Reddit, well I'm not a Redditor but it certainly seems possible that the question was asked in bad faith. I guess that's a judgement call.  It doesn't look like existing replies are gone. If I understand correctly, they've just halted further discussion.

In the future, should I choose to post here again, I'll include the reason for the post, which I assure you will involve the difficulty of having conversations.

Probably now we should expect sanctions against the USA and UK and worldwide condemnation.

Oh, no, I'm sorry, it's different.

Quote from: Wolkenkrabber on Feb 17, 2024, 11:54

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ansl0rBY9A

This particular video/podcast exists because they're trying to diminish Taylor's mostly overwhelming popularity.

I believe this to be very true:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2wLXuX4388

wow, not sure what to make of it all after that Candace Owens video. nothing is how it appears on the surface, maybe including Candace Owens herself. sigh. 

Quote from: Bosco on Feb 18, 2024, 01:03

This particular video/podcast exists because they're trying to diminish Taylor's mostly overwhelming popularity.


I believe this to be very true...

it does seem like she could help turnout. 

doing the math, with an estimated 2/3 of eligible voters actively participating in 2020, that leaves around 80 million eligible voters to motivate. the eras tour sold around 4 million tickets. so there's around 20 eras tours worth of people left to reach.

then again the 2020 election result could have been different with as little as 44k more or fewer votes. that's 1.1% of the eras tour. 

so... who knows. there's obviously many more factors affecting the truth of it, such as where her fans are, how many of them are already actively voting, etc.

I'm curious about your comment though, "this podcast exists because they're trying to diminish her popularity". are you suggesting this is like a smear piece? or just that people are afraid of her influence? Candace is certainly implying that Taylor's power is unchecked and being abused, that is a scary idea, and now that I write all this out yeah maybe I get your point. maybe this is why some celebrities opt out of political statements, because one person having that kind of influence is too much.

Quote from: shakermaker on Feb 18, 2024, 16:48

I'm curious about your comment though, "this podcast exists because they're trying to diminish her popularity". are you suggesting this is like a smear piece? or just that people are afraid of her influence?

Yes, and Yes.

Although, on the surface it's not exactly an effective smear piece, since I'm gonna go on the assumption a lot of black women still identify as Democrats or at least, lean left, and will reject/ignore just about anything Candace Owens touches/says.

That being said, Candace Owens is a seemingly, young, confident, successful, black woman, that regularly converses with extremely popular and influential right wing talking heads who generally are WHITE. Without overstepping too much, I would understand how being presented this information in the manor Candace has might convince black women, or really anyone struggling to identify themselves politically, to take this Taylor Swift fad as a danger to your beliefs or justice. Thus, maybe siding against the Swifty army.

Don't want to dig too deep into this...  just want to add that Taylor is also a, successful, young, confident, well-liked, blue-eyed, blonde haired, attractive (subjective), entertainer, singer, and most importantly NO KIDS and NOT MARRIED. The last two things are probably the most significant here, because it's the most identifiable thing she has with majority of her fans. Single minded females are absolute poison to the republican party. More of them voting or registering to vote is the exact opposite of what they want happening. Not only does this affect the general presidential election, but also the state, and local elections.

It's also my guess she'll balk at publicly endorsing a candidate. Unless, someone really crosses a line, I have to imagine she'll take the route of the guy in my avatar... "Republicans buy sneakers, too"

...

Quote from: Explud on Mar 22, 2024, 20:39

...

Just massively confusing and disappointing times, brother. I hope you and the ones close to you weren't affected by this tragedy. 

Reminds of what happens at Bataclan in Paris or during the Ariana Grande concert in Manchester. Such things should not happen.

Quote from: Csar on Apr 25, 2024, 19:41

atrocities it commits

mp4[1].mp4
I was hoping that at least you weren't influenced by this propaganda. :(

Quote from: Csar on Apr 25, 2024, 19:41

And the fear alone for anyone involved to potentially end up as a bargaining chip (Brittney G. comes to mind)

It seems to me that this was generally a coordinated operation between the two special services.
She had previously worked in Russia for about 7 years, I think she was well aware of the entry restrictions. Something is not clean in this situation. This is an inappropriate example.
And yes, you can imagine that drugs and weapons is not allowed in our country.

So you think, all those bands and performers who have come to us anyway over the past 2 years, are they also a bargaining chip?

Quote from: Csar on Apr 25, 2024, 19:41

because of one man's idiocy would make me considering it twice before going there

Who are you talking about?
What kind of idiocy do you mean exactly?



Btw, about "atrocities it commits", your country also sponsors the killing of people, in case you didn't know.

@Explud

A lot of this fearmongering and "propaganda" is a result of massive disapproval of the war/invasion/occupancy of Ukraine. You can thank your leaders for this reputation.


I agree with you though, all our countries have blood on our hands in some fashion.

I think I offended him, because he hasn't been on the forum for almost a month.
He didn't reply to the email either.

I'm sorry guys.

We're talking about Csar here, no? 

Yes

I don't see anything insulting in your post, I think you're ok. 

I hope that's not the case... 

If he's not around by the time the new Tom produced Aurora track is released, then I'm worried.

OK, so my country decided to elected a Nazi party as the second strongest party into the European Parliament. A party that wants to abolish the European Parliament and the EU. And they voted for this party with full intention and full awareness, not out of protest to teach the "old" parties a lesson. What is also interesting in this case is that most of the votes for this party came from the eastern part of the country (which was to be expected), and that they received a surprising high number of votes especially among the 16 to 24 year olds. My school days are long ago, but don't they teach history anymore? Luckily, this shitty organization didn't get as many votes in my town as the other parties. #fckafd

Quote from: Bosco on May 21, 2024, 02:31

I hope that's not the case...

If he's not around by the time the new Tom produced Aurora track is released, then I'm worried.

The time has already come, and he still does not visit the forum. ((

Quote from: ThePumisher on Jun 10, 2024, 16:45

they received a surprising high number of votes especially among the 16 to 24 year olds. My school days are long ago, but don't they teach history anymore?

I'm just as shocked as you are about our election results, but I believe it's much more complicated than that. The AfD is much more sinister and strategic than people give it credit for, and it's terrifying that no one takes this threat seriously. They've perfected the art of targeting vulnerable, confused teens and young adults who are upset with how the world is right now and giving them a false sense of belonging and a false promise of creating a better future for them. While those individuals might not start out as right-wingers or conservatives even, they get sucked into their hateful beliefs eventually. A high school friend of mine went down that exact path - needless to say that I have cut her off. 

Other parties have failed to make political decisions that benefit young people in this country. They are overlooked in current day politics, not taken seriously, or just an afterthought right before an election. This can, and as we see, does radicalize people. While the AfD does not give two shits about young people, they are excellent at making it seem like they are. 

All other German parties, pardon my French from now on, need to get their shit together, and our good old Verfassungsschutz should finally get their asses to work and ban this fucking nazi collective before any more substantial damage is done. We cannot tolerate blatant nazi behavior, especially not with the history associated with this country. 

Absolute befuddlement.

Befuddlement might be putting it mildly. This feels like a serious inflection point in what is already the wildest election season in history.

I was already scared for November, but this is an absolutely terrifying turn of events.

EDIT: Or it's just yet another inflection point and no bigger than Jan 6th? And the real change was something years ago that we'll only really be able to understand when and if this fucking madness ends. I don't know anymore.

So I think the assassination attempt is obviously significant news and I'm definitely concerned about it. But when I take a step back, I am a bit surprised how uninterrupted everything was yesterday and today considering the magnitude of who the target was.

Either I'm chalking it up to it's the weekend/summer/vacation and nobody wants to be bothered, or the popularity of Donald Trump is maybe exaggerated? I try to remind myself that news networks enflame every fucking situation to create fear for views, and damnit, Donald Trump is great for business.

But I don't know, it just doesn't feel like a "where were you?" moment.


So the page turns... RNC in Milwaukee starts tomorrow. Trumpers are gonna be sky high off this martyr-esk jet fuel. Maybe turn the TV off and block news outlets on the internet for the next week or two and save yourself some anxiety.

Some opnions that jumped out at me on social media - from Americans (I believe).
The first one -the video- takes about 30 seconds to hit top gear. Stick with it.

https://x.com/maddenifico/status/1812694718523875442

https://x.com/RantsFromStevo/status/1812349917760798893

https://x.com/Mikel_Jollett/status/1812837579127136715

EDIT: One more
https://x.com/NotHoodlum/status/1812835973341860247

Quote from: Bosco on Jul 15, 2024, 05:04

But I don't know, it just doesn't feel like a "where were you?" moment.

This is the scariest thing. My wife and I are looking at each other, reading the news like, holy shit. But either general consensus feels like it's less of a big deal, or people are too jaded at this point to engage in it as another discussion on... well everything.

A discord I'm part of very quickly took to posting memes about the event. Again, highlighting that sense of nobody really caring, or taking it seriously.

It's an unsettling feeling to say the least.

Definitely worth diving into Wolkenkrabber's post. This is a big deal. A worrying big deal as the events of this election cycle (and what is at stake) is unprecedented. What has happened leading the US up to this is unprecedented. It does not feel normal to me. 


I follow an U.S. historian Heather Cox Richardson. The historical context in which she frames current events (for discussions and her letters) are eye opening and informative. Sources are cited. A reasoned calm voice in a storm of speculation and misinformation. I would urge those States side to give her a follow (on FB) or subscribe to her substack. Here is an except was from her letter after the assassination attempt.

https://open.substack.com/pub/heathercoxrichardson/p/july-14-2024?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

'In the confusion immediately after the shooting, MAGA Republicans blamed the Democrats for the violence. "Today is not just some isolated incident," Ohio senator J.D. Vance, who is in the running to be Trump's vice presidential pick, posted on social media. "The central premise of the Biden campaign is that President Donald Trump is an authoritarian fascist who must be stopped at all costs. That rhetoric led directly to President Trump's attempted assassination." Representative Mike Collins of Georgia called for a Republican district attorney to "immediately file charges against Joseph R. Biden for inciting an assassination." Indeed, he said, "Joe Biden sent the orders."  
Edward Luce of the Financial Times noted, "Almost any criticism of Trump is already being spun by Maga as an incitement to assassinate him. This is an Orwellian attempt to silence what remains of the effort to stop him from regaining power." Indeed, MAGA Republicans appear to be trying to stop discussion of their extremist plans— which are enormously unpopular— by claiming that such a discussion is polarizing. '

from the article you linked @whirlygirl, love this bit by Craig Moore in the comments:

Quote

While I don't believe in an actual Satan, if there was ever a better support of the myth, it's gotta be trumps unbelievable ability to fail upward, almost every damn time.

https://open.substack.com/pub/heathercoxrichardson/p/july-14-2024?r=3zsoq9&utm_campaign=comment-list-share-cta&utm_medium=web&comments=true&commentId=62091377

I promise I'm not gonna spam all my political worries about this upcoming election on daily basis...

I just want to express a small sigh of relief.

Phew!

Republicans could've put the Democrats on life support after this recent convention, but they stayed completely steadfast on Trumpisim. I'm pretty confident to say they've grabbed negative value at best in the ground for securing independent or undecided voters.

That being said, they gave the Trumpers exactly what they wanted and solidified their base. Nearly half the population is gonna vote for Trump and that isn't changing. Once again, we are gonna be fucking desperate for the youth to get out and vote and save this election.

Finally, Democrats are having one of their worst weeks in the history of its party. Our presidential nominee for 2024 is in limbo (Joe Biden is old) and whichever way it figures to go, it will require bad blood and risky maneuvering to compound the already unsustainable stress.

Anyways, fuck Elon Musk.

Quote from: Bosco on Jul 19, 2024, 07:29

Once again, we are gonna be fucking desperate for the youth to get out and vote and save this election.

calling for desperate measures. 

I'm writing postcards to people in swing states who are registered and have a history of not turning up. it's proven to make a difference. it's a drop in the bucket, but enough to make a difference in these razor-thin election leads. I've done it the past two elections (+ run offs) and am doing it again.

they've paused sign-ups for a moment while they catch up on orders, but if you (or anyone here) is interested they expect to resume early August. https://www.turnoutpac.org/postcards/

A underrated "tweet" on Trumps embarrassingly long and rambling speech that even some of his supporters probably would laugh at: 

https://twitter.com/SMarmalstein/status/1814148058701041844

To give some insight, "Gitmo" is short for Guantanamo Bay a United States detention camp located on the island/country of Cuba where it's infamous for torture. 

Quote from: Bosco on Jul 19, 2024, 07:29

Once again, we are gonna be fucking desperate for the youth to get out and vote and save this election.

I found this op-ed reassuring. I haven't verified his claims.

Quote

With the sole exception of 2004, in every presidential election since 1992, the Democratic nominee has won the popular vote... Since 2020, 16 million young people have become eligible to vote, and 12 million people, most of them older, have died. Biden beat Trump by 30 points among young people, according to the exit polls, and he lost among the oldest voters (52% for Trump, 47% for Biden). So the fundamental composition of our nation's electorate is more progressive, more diverse and more favorable to Democrats right now than it was in 2020.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jul/23/kamala-harris-elecion-masterstroke-democrats

@shakermaker

I'm sure that's true overall in the popular vote, but there is plenty of young men who will vote Republican and they all reside in the key swing states.

So in the akin to my Taylor Swift theory, young men in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Arizona, etc... are very influenced by the media company Barstool Sports.

And if you aren't aware of what Barstool Sports is, well, it's an online sports media company which celebrates toxic frat boy culture in both fun and enticing fashion. The company's founder, Dave Portnoy, is a championed right-leaning personality, that frequents on Fox News outlets. Bartsool Sports is incredibly popular on college campuses.

---

Was not expecting this unbridled positivity with Kamala Harris taking the reins for the Democrats. Hoping this momentum can continue through election night. Thank you Joe!

On that note, exciting times! Another woman running for president, one of color, and a myriad of high caliber running mates to pick from. It feels fucking awesome!

Trying to not to get too ahead of myself and plenty of campaign season to go... but the potential a black/asian woman flipping this race on a dime and taking down Trump would be an amazing end to all of this.

Quote from: Bosco on Jul 24, 2024, 02:01

but the potential a black/asian woman flipping this race on a dime and taking down Trump would be an amazing end to all of this.

All of sudden I'm feeling very attracted to the Vice President.   :luv

Sign me up for this fan fiction!

Quote from: Bosco on Jul 30, 2024, 05:39

All of a sudden (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ_iLTzp_yU) I'm feeling very attracted to the Vice President.  :luv

FTFY

Quote from: Bosco on Jul 30, 2024, 05:39

All of sudden I'm feeling very attracted to the Vice President.  :luv

Sign me up for this fan fiction!

I love this meme so much. 

and in no way do I want memes have political consequence. we talked about Taylor Swift's potential influence - a decentralized influence like a meme could be much more dangerous.

but god I love this meme.

Dick Cheney (and his daughter, former congresswoman, Liz Cheney) has voiced that he'll vote for Kamala Harris in the upcoming election.


(https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExYnpseGpiNmZ4YW9naXM4Mmd0MjRyODV3eGE4bDNzcnA4MTA2a29wMSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/l3q2K5jinAlChoCLS/200w.webp)

The universe is insanely out of balance. Not even grateful for this. We are so broken...

We're putting on a destress workshop at our studio on Election Day. I can't imagine being able to do anything remotely relaxing that day, but we're hoping being able to smoosh some dirt into various shapes will help push off the dread for a few hours.

I'm both ready for it to all be over - and not wanting that day to get here any sooner.

Plus, the added feeling of literally, and legally not being able to make a difference is a fun one! Doesn't stop Joe and Kamala's team texting me on the weekly though  ;D

Quote from: Bosco on Sep 07, 2024, 07:24

Dick Cheney (and his daughter, former congresswoman, Liz Cheney) has voiced that he'll vote for Kamala Harris in the upcoming election.

...Not even grateful for this...

Well if Dems want Trump/Vance to lose, it could be helpful, even if you don't want the Cheney's help. Liz Cheney not pulling her punches here:

https://x.com/Liz_Cheney/status/1833546226538828032

Liz Cheney had her moment. I give her credit for condemning the actions of January 6th insurrection, but she's not exactly a popular politician outside the state of Wyoming nor was her father. Majority of her home state now considers her entire family traitors to the Republican party. Wyoming isn't a swing state and wont be a factor in this upcoming election. This "endorsement" really is a zero gain for the Democrats. Instead, this is meat to feed the media cycle, and a reminder of how twisted the state of American politics is right now.

A quick look back at the picture of Harris above - her husband Douglas Emhoff recently bought a copy of Brotherhood


https://www.instagram.com/p/C_wVQmrpEqJ/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aAyYP4t460

https://x.com/tonyposnanski/status/1833983955000758575

https://x.com/MonoNeon/status/1833860471494963555

https://x.com/NoahGarfinkel/status/1833708370974695574

https://x.com/Wet_Metal/status/1833771437850579224

https://x.com/Zero_4/status/1833743705624162809

How's it possible for someone even thinking about voting for Trump?  :D

Quote from: ThePumisher on Sep 12, 2024, 13:29

How's it possible for someone even thinking about voting for Trump?  :D

Not proud of this and I know I'm not alone, but I have plenty of extended family that will be voting for him. Thankfully, most of these votes will be casted in a deep blue (strong Democrat majority) state of Illinois.

---

Hey, if you guys maybe want to follow along with the current polls and daily updates about political races here in the United States, I recommend this:

https://www.electoral-vote.com/

A lot of good stuff there to absorb

Quote from: Bosco on Sep 12, 2024, 18:08

I have plenty of extended family that will be voting for him.

Have they said why? Help us to understand!

---

Quote from: ThePumisher on Sep 12, 2024, 09:52

A quick look back at the picture of Harris above - her husband Douglas Emhoff recently bought a copy of Brotherhood

Ha! Just seen this on New Order's Insta stories. Yes he did buy Brotherhood - but the original one by New Order, rather than the compilation from the Chems - who might have been inspired to copy New Order's album title. [EDIT: I've only just realised that your insta post is a video that plays. D'oh! What happened to the 'play' triangle on Instagram?]

https://x.com/neworder/status/1834196620897931341

Mind you, Doug has jumped the gun a bit. If he wanted to buy Brotherhood in 2024 he should have waited unil November for the new box set re-issue with nine previously unreleased tracks on disc 2. Now this is how to do a re-issue!

https://x.com/neworder/status/1831316290486804844

Quote from: Wolkenkrabber on Sep 12, 2024, 21:53

Mind you, Doug has jumped the gun a bit. If he wanted to buy Brotherhood in 2024 he should have waited unil November for the new box set re-issue with nine previously unreleased tracks on disc 2. Now this is how to do a re-issue!

But on Vinyl it's no new material.

Quote from: Wolkenkrabber on Sep 12, 2024, 21:53

Have they said why? Help us to understand!

They're invested in a cult of ideology surrounding the Republican party. Pretty sure they could give a shit about Donald Trump, but they cant untie themselves from the economic and social differences to support a Democratic candidate. They live in an area where they're encouraged for their beliefs, so they aren't exactly challenged amongst their neighbors or peers.

Maybe they watched this debate and changed their mind? Doubt it.

I'm afraid to admit they might have a mild dose of xenophobia, racism, and sexism, which Donald will gladly speak for on their behalf.

---

Not sure if the world is familiar with Rick Steves but he's been traveling to all of your countries for quite some time now and has educated Americans and bolstered your tourism economy... He's like the world traveling version of Mr. Rogers.

If your familiar with his work, this was no secret who'd he be voting for, but as far as I know this is the first time he's made a political endorsement and I'm thrilled he did it.

https://twitter.com/RickSteves/status/1834390853701497229

After self-creating one of his most embarrassing weeks in presidential campaign history, Trump had one hell of a Sunday to cap the week:

https://x.com/TrumpDailyPosts/status/1835350474918342783



a few hours later...


https://x.com/TrumpDailyPosts/status/1835416312375599161

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsYBtfQ3QDo



updating story here:

https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/15/politics/donald-trump-safe-shots/index.html

https://x.com/FlavorFlav/status/1835356318044991631

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TgJVYLPGvs

I am at a loss for words.

I was expecting that, as anyone with any sense would. 
Right won not because it's strong but because left is hilariously weak. 

Quote from: sandelic on Nov 06, 2024, 09:45

I was expecting that, as anyone with any sense would.
Right won not because it's strong but because left is hilariously weak.

As someone who lives here, it honestly felt like the Left had huge momentum going into last night. And while I believed it would always be close, I didn't think it would be an eye-opening slaughter.

Disappointed in the closing tallies from my home state of Illinois. It looks like republicans made headway in my state which, I'm very surprised by. Which by the way, my parents home is in a suburban hotbed for business professional republicans, was victim of political terrorism, TWICE. First was a non-return addressed letter threatening to volunteer them in some bogus voluntary immigrant housing because of their Harris/Walz sign on their lawn, and the second being someone swiping their election sign on election day, which sounds petty to complain about, but really upsetted my Mom.

Feel awful for women and deeply embarrassed by my country. I'm sorry everybody. I did my part...

Such a depressing day

A new world over. Putin has truly won this election

Quote from: sneakerbeater on Nov 06, 2024, 11:19

Putin has truly won his election

More than six months ago.

Quote from: Bosco on Nov 06, 2024, 10:30

Feel awful for women and deeply embarrassed by my country. I'm sorry everybody. I did my part...

The BBC had roving reporters n the US in the past week asking passers by who they would vote for.
In one of the southern states, a young black female said: "I was at a party a while back and someone had a gun and started shooting, I wished I had a gun so I could protect myself". So she was "probably going to vote Trump".

Do Americans realise that the reason why Guns are the leading cause of death among American children and teens (https://www.sandyhookpromise.org/blog/gun-violence/facts-about-gun-violence-and-school-shootings/) is because everyone has a f**king gun?! Has this been spelled out to Americans? Do they all get that? It's an arms race and it leads to way higher gun deaths than in other countries. Maybe Americans think that the Canadian gun death rate is lower just cos they're boring?

I do NOT feel sorry for that young woman if she voted Trump. Fuck her.  I feel sorry for the rest of us. When America votes for its president we ALL get him to some extent. And I am pissed.

Other Americans talked abut the Economy/inflation. Do Americans realise that that shit didn't just happen in America? I saw a right wing commentator say on twitter, about 6 months ago: "Look at the price of a McDonalds meal now. This reflects badly on Biden [not yet ruled out] for the next election."
I replied: "Gretings from London UK, same thing here with McDonalds. Is that Biden's fault too?" -No reply.

Here's an article (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/30/trump-biden-harris-us-economy) on the reasons for inflation and the true state of the US economy at the moment. It took me five seconds to google this. Was this made clear to Americans in the run up to the election?

Quote

Trump blames Biden and Harris for causing inflation, but they weren't the cause. The two main causes were the pandemic's closing factories and disrupting supply chains worldwide and Russia's war against Ukraine, which increased energy and food prices

Guess what. This shit affected people in UK and Ireland and other parts of Europe too!

Quote

The US economy has grown the fastest among major industrial nations since the pandemic began. Our economy has grown twice as fast as Canada's, three times as fast as France's and Japan's, and four times as fast as Britain's. Under Biden, the average unemployment rate has been lower than under any president since Lyndon Johnson.

Boo hoo, poor America! You have it soooo tough. Try grocery prices on this side of the pond. Absolutely mental! You are recovering better than us!
Article: Record number of food bank handouts in London last year - up 171% in five years (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/trussell-trust-food-bank-london-cost-of-living-poverty-b1157848.html)

It took me literally seconds to find the first link (and the 2nd) in this post [EDIT: I meant the one about the economy]. SECONDS. Did Trump voters not know or not want to know?!

January 6th and the Giuliani "rigged voting machines" stuff should have fnished Trump forever. I am stunned that people didn't see how appalling that was. Regardless of their political leanings.

I remember hopping into a taxi in Dublin back around the time Trump first came to power. Taxi driver started talking about Americans and said "they're all stupid, the whole lot of them". Well taxi drivers have their opinions -quite often wrong, so I said: "You can't say that, you can't call an entire nation stupid - they have great universites there, they sent a man to the moon!"
But now, honestly if a taxi driver or anyone else offered that sweeping opinion, I'd just keep my mouth shut. How any democratic free-thinking nation could allow that guy to run again, I will never understand.

As for Sandelic's opinion:  the Left being weak. I don't really understand it. May need more clarification there.
I watched Trump pretend to fellate a microphone, and sway around to Sinead O' Connor for 40 minutes (no I didnt watch the full 40 mins!) at his poitical rallies, oh and tell casual lies (https://edition.cnn.com/2024/11/04/politics/fact-check-trump-campaign-final-day-election/index.html), and host comedians happy to make racist attacks on Puerto Rico (Huh!?).

By contrast, I watched a Democratic party that acted decisevely in removing its candidate (Biden) and organising a new one. She appeared to put on good rallies, she came across as positive, clear thinking and reasonably honest. But hey, maybe she forgot to mention the good things about the US economy? That would -genuinely- be a mistake.


Here's a UK MP already talking about distancing the UK from the US:
https://x.com/ThreshedThought/status/1854045673751990380

And an extension (reinforcement?) of my Jan 6th thoughts:
https://x.com/LBC/status/1854134415695171981

And a re-tweet from Ed Simons:
https://x.com/estellecostanza/status/1854039727688601887

Sorry if you're getting the brunt of this from me Bosco, but I am full-on angry at America right now.
For balance: Putin can go fuck himself too.

I am ashamed of my nation today. Here in 2024, I thought we were beyond all this, especially with the boomers dying off and the young people seeing what is at stake. But...the idiots and the assholes have spoken and will do damage that will last long beyond this Presidential cycle.

Worst of all for me? Kamala wasn't my perfect candidate, but she had a great campaign and was the first Democrat since Obama I was happy to vote for (as compared to being the lesser of the evils like Clinton and Biden). And now...I'm just devastated. I'd love to say a platform having a stronger stance against the horrors in Gaza would have made a difference, but in the end, it was simply about domestic fear, hate, racism, and misogyny. The knuckledraggers who voted against her probably couldn't even identify Israel on a map, let alone point to he strip. And now we shall buddy up with dictators instead, with a loyal cabinet and no checks and balances.

Damn you guys. I'm hardly engaged these days but I can't stop thinking of you all  in this little haven and corner of the internet. Seen a lot of elections cycles through your eyes here on the boards, over the years.

What a devastating past 24 hours it has been. It is weird in a boiling point sort of way, to process this. But... Thank you guys for being here. ❤️

Quote from: Wolkenkrabber on Nov 06, 2024, 13:10

Do Americans realise that the reason why Guns are the leading cause of death among American children and teens (https://www.sandyhookpromise.org/blog/gun-violence/facts-about-gun-violence-and-school-shootings/) is because everyone has a f**king gun?!

A lot of us-americans know this. But the NRA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association) is doing a lot on lobbying so everybody is shure that the only way of beeing save from gun violence is having your own guns (yes, that include for some more weird reason assault rifles). Rest of the world knows how it really is...

But even if the candidate who should be against weapons owns a gun (CLICK (https://www.cnn.com/2024/09/20/politics/gun-owner-kamala-harris/index.html) or CLICK (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/10/us/politics/kamala-harris-gun.html)), you know where you are on this topic. The NRA is force, and guns will be be a daily thing in the States.

Quote from: Wolkenkrabber on Nov 06, 2024, 13:10

Here's an article (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/30/trump-biden-harris-us-economy) on the reasons for inflation and the true state of the US economy at the moment.

Thats a global problem. For example, here in germany inflation is going down since 3 years or so, but know one knows because prices remain high - still everyone blames our current government. No one is interesstet in why prices are high, no one blames the companies that wanted to keep profits high. But the Opposition is right there to make shure the people believe is the fault of the current government. Same in every country (if you live in country that has an opposition - which every country should have but a lot of countrys don't have even if you think you do have) - so here we are with the us and a. And sorry to to say that, but he democrats would done have the same saying if Trump was the current past president.

According to these exit polls, I don't understand the enormous leap of Latino men supporting [)onald +rump. All campaign long he demeaned and belittled all latino countries south of the border, this is one of the most perplexing gains.

What Bosco said is very important, in my opinion.
There should be honest talk among liberals why women and minorities flocked to elect drumpf. 

Quote from: sandelic on Nov 07, 2024, 14:32

What Bosco said is very important, in my opinion.
There should be honest talk among liberals why women and minorities flocked to elect drumpf.

Yes, agreed. But I think it all boils down to this...

"It's the Economy, Stupid!" (James Carville)


Thus, Democrats are probably looking at future candidates built off of the idea of strong economic values like Gavin Newsom (governor of California) or J.B. Pritzker (governor of Illinois). Newsom is the leader of the 5th largest economy in the world (enough said). J.B. Pritzker is a jolly and likable Billionaire, who has done a great job of becoming allies with minority groups and center-Republicans.


Edit and *WARNING*: I noticed an unusual amount of "Guests" in this thread and I think it might be because of my complete use of THOU WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED in my previous post. I've since edited, and the guests list went down...

:takes off tinfoil hat:

Quote from: ThePumisher on Jan 08, 2025, 10:09

So Mister President-elect Orange Face is dreaming about using the US Army to take over Greenland & the Panama Canal? And he wants Canada to be the 51st State of the United States (https://edition.cnn.com/2025/01/08/politics/trump-greenland-canada-panama-analysis/index.html)? And he wants the Gulf of Mexico to be renamed into Gulf of America?

It's not like anybody has said pre election he's a freak. Ok, everybody has said it, but still the majority of US citizens voted for him (like they've forget about his first 4 years as president)...

Meanwhile the world burns.
I really hope this instagram embeds.
I also kinda hope that this stuff might make America take climate change more seriously than it has done to date. But with Trump in charge... :-\
https://www.instagram.com/p/DEk-FdYREhe/?img_index=1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygsLpOwufoM

Quote from: Wolkenkrabber on Jan 08, 2025, 21:07

make America take climate change more seriously than it has done to date

Not gonna happen...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-01-07/jpmorgan-quits-net-zero-banking-alliance-following-citi-bofa ( https://archive.ph/mSQ6A )

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-01-08/rbc-bmo-signal-they-may-follow-wall-street-out-of-climate-club ( https://archive.ph/Yw3l4 )

---

this one's in german but maybe some will understand

Quote

So that was the first week of 2025:
- Trump wants Canada & Greenland
- Höcke* wants the incitement of people to be legalised
- FPÖ** is probably becoming the government of Austria
- Merz*** wants expatriation if someone is getting violent
- No more fact checking on everything Meta
- Scholz**** finding it weird to ban private firecrackers for new year's eve

Stay tuned for the following 51 weeks

* Höcke is part of the german nazi party AfD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_for_Germany) (for some weird reason the AfD is praised a lot of times by Elon Musk)
** FPÖ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Party_of_Austria) is a very far right party in Austria
*** Merz is part of the larges party in germany, CDU (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Democratic_Union_of_Germany)
**** Scholz is our current Chancellor, but there are new elections in a couple of weeks. Background of the "Böllerverbot"-discussion ist that this year again too many people - mostly in Berlin - have died because of using firecrackers, many buildings where demaged and people where attacking paramedics, police and firefighters with them just for fun (or to show who has the largest dick, i don't know)

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/right-wingers-blame-los-angeles-fires-diversity-democrats-1235230047/

Re: Southern California Fires

I suppose the new difficult question becomes, is there a valid reason to rebuild these costal communities? It's about guaranteed that the same area will be susceptible to natural disaster sooner than later and unlike some other vulnerable natural disaster areas, Los Angeles has a densely populated sprawl that is capable of triggering a catastrophic fallout effect.

Today these communities lost their homes, possessions, memories, and sadly for a few, loved ones. But think about all the forever chemicals and carcinogens that entered the atmosphere from these fires. In the coming years, don't be surprised by the unprecedented rise of health issues not only in the Southern California counties, but just about anything west of the Rocky Mountains.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKUNfNnWdKQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64kU1LNJlqs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X738ZfTID9c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLvxXg1jodU

Today is the first time in several days where I haven't been doomscrolling the recent California wildfires. It was a perfect firestorm. Strong winds (the Santa Ana winds) gusting over 85 miles per hour, embers that can fly up to 3 miles on those winds, no significant rain since May, everything is as dry as a bone here and so so vulnerable. The amount of devastation is something I am having a hard time wrapping my head around. As someone who has spent 48 of my (soon) 53 years of my life living in Southern California, I'm having a hard time with the scale of it all. Thousands and thousands of people suddenly homeless. There is much focus on high profile Palisades as there should be, and it should also be noted the town of Altadena was pretty much blown off the map due to the concurrent Eaton fire. What I find to be salt in the wounds is the politicizing this tragedy, pointing fingers, calling for resignation of the LA Mayor and California governor, and the dumb fuck conspiracy theories and misinformation going around. So much so, the California governor published an FAQ to combat the lies. 

So, the difficult question.

They will rebuild. There is still tourism to be hand in the great state of California. It won't be the same, the community will no doubt disperse, but the area will be rebuilt. The Getty Villa museum (I was just there a month ago) survived the fire and within the structure survives the billions worth of ancient artifacts. I am hopeful that bit of culture can remain an anchor to the area. Whether or not the homes on the sand can be rebuilt remains to be seen. I don't know that the town of Altadena will fare as well as that community is far less affluent and not nearly as high profile as the Pacific Palisades area. On a homeowner level, as if getting home owner's insurance isn't enough of a high cost pain in the ass... that is if your insurance company didn't already flee the state. 

Nicest thing about today (as for now) is that flags at White House and Capitol are still on half-staff

WTF is this shit? (ironically Musk's Twitter/X won't embed).

https://x.com/atrupar/status/1881431018017554762
https://x.com/Imposter_Edits/status/1881436301221896306

"My heart goes out to you" is supposedly the explanation, and "He has Asperger's".
But it looks very odd.

Deadline:  Elon Musk Offers MAGA Rally Nazi-Like Salute (https://deadline.com/2025/01/trump-inauguration-live-updates-1236260202/)

You can't spell felon without elon... God how I hate this guy 

Quote from: Wolkenkrabber on Jan 20, 2025, 20:51

WTF is this shit? (ironically Musk's Twitter/X won't embed).

https://x.com/atrupar/status/1881431018017554762
https://x.com/Imposter_Edits/status/1881436301221896306

"My heart goes out to you" is supposedly the explanation, and "He has Asperger's".
But it looks very odd.

Deadline:  Elon Musk Offers MAGA Rally Nazi-Like Salute (https://deadline.com/2025/01/trump-inauguration-live-updates-1236260202/)

he's been slimy about his nazi dogwhistles since he bought Twitter under the guise of just asking questions or free speech, he supported the AfD

it's a nazi salute, fascist gesture, he's told us who he is and it's irresponsible and stupid for anyone not to believe him, same with the rest of government rn

And right after that Trump pardoned all January 6 rioters, including members of the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers who violently attacked police.

Saw the Proud Boys marching and chanting on the news last night. What a not-so-great bunch of lads they are. :o

Hopefully y'all can click and play this Insta post. Seems a good response to anyone saying Musk wasn't doing a fascist salute:

https://www.instagram.com/p/DFFtIAWoyR_/

I'm horrified sick and unsettled, you guys. Today we are seeing the Nazi apologists for who they are with excusing, normalizing and sanewashing what we saw, with our own eyes, yesterday. I'm seeing friends of friends excusing this. I'm seeing the media excusing this. I know what I saw, and they and the world did too. It's not right. It's dreadful and downright terrifying.

It's not like any of this is surprising, but it is still sickening to watch.

I've recently read a term that accurately describes the political system the US has now: Dork Fascism

I like the guy. He seems to be a competent politician, everything I've heard from him so far confirms my opinion.

So there was a group of activists (Led by Donkeys (https://www.instagram.com/ledbydonkeys/)) who projected an image of Musk's Hitler salute onto the Gigafactory near Berlin. And now the German Office for the Protection of the Constitution is taking action against the activists for "using symbols of unconstitutional organizations". You can't make all this up...
In Germany, showing the Hitler salute is illegal since World War 2 (am i the only who thinks we are heading towards #3 faster than ever except maybe the Cuba crisis in the 19sixtis?), with exceptions in films and series or art in general (this still has to be checked so that not everything is sold as "art") => Das Boot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Boot) or Der Untergang (Downfall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downfall_(2004_film))), for example.


https://www.instagram.com/p/DFJDgLao3tO/






Oh, and if you haven't seen either of the two films mentioned above yet - do it, they are incredibly good, especially Downfall. There is also a TV version of both of them produced especially for German public television, which are longer (Der Untergang is about 3 hours long, Das Boot about 5h30min) - i don't know if there is a translated edition of the TV version for the international market or if you have to stay with the (still good) theatrical version.

Haven't seen Das Boot, but Downfall is an amazing film!

I hate to generalize, and I can't speak for everywhere, but unfortunately most younger people here in America will never bother to sit through a film like these because of subtitles, too long, minimal action scenes, and happened so long ago they can't associate. If it doesn't fit in a TikTok slide forget about it.

Downfall does have the classic "Mein Fuhrer" meme clip. I suppose if you lead with that you might capture some attention. Hey, it worked on me!

Quote from: Bosco on Jan 25, 2025, 21:24

If it doesn't fit in a TikTok slide forget about it

You can cut the TV Edition of Das Boot into 1236 TT-slides...

Quote from: ThePumisher on Jan 25, 2025, 22:12

You can cut the TV Edition of Das Boot into 1236 TT-slides...

Haha

But really, JoJo Rabbit is a good fictional satire to ease a younger audience into the curiosity towards more hard hitting films like Downfall, Schindler's List, The Pianist, and Life Is Beautiful.

On a mission to see Das Boot now. And as I read the synopsis I see it's about a U-boat, which ironically, I've actually been aboard a captured German U-boat (U-505) here in Chicago at the Museum of Science and Industry. The museum has an entire wing dedicated to the ship:

(https://www.msichicago.org/fileadmin/assets/_processed_/5/8/csm_u-505-big_2a9500bbfe.jpg)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-505

What a shitshow we have going on in the U.S. It's bad enough half of us voted for this...but now, as things are happening that people forever said they would fight, many are welcoming it with open arms and making excuses. 

Quote from: ThePumisher on Jan 21, 2025, 23:38

I like the guy. He seems to be a competent politician, everything I've heard from him so far confirms my opinion.

Yes, Bernie has been on the right side of history for decades fighting the fight and trying to educate people to the real dangers in inequalities we face. Unfortunately, a combination of the corporate media and establishment politicians have been trying to silence and discredit him for years despite his message being right on target. He ran twice in primary elections to run for president and was pretty much sabotaged by a his own party with help from the major corporate media. Had he been elected, the needle may have moved greatly in a different direction. The worse part? Despite all the selfish, incompetent, incoherent, out of touch septuagenarians and octogenarians our nation has chosen to leave in power, Sanders is the only one in that age group who speaks with fire and truth to modern issues yet is constantly mocked or ignored.

 

Replying over here because I don't want to derail the disassociation thread, and also it feels relevant to the present topic of discussion -

Quote from: Wolkenkrabber on Jan 25, 2025, 15:55

Swastika Eyes - Chems mix
(Wait, am I doing this right?)

This prompted me to revisit the meaning of this song.

It's a killer piece of music that I love, and yet in the present world I would hesitate to publicly listen to it, for fear of it being perceived as a celebration.

I know that is not what it is. But people not already familiar with the song - and few people around me are - I imagine it could be quite jarring, if not scary, to hear such an aggressive sound and a singer shouting about that symbol.

What would I say if someone asked me to defend having this in my record collection? I'm not sure. I'm not prepared for that. In its time, it seemed obvious it was a criticism. In the context of today's US political atmosphere, that meaning feels not obvious at all.

Via Wikipedia and the Internet Archive I dug up some comments from the band. They could certainly be more eloquent... calling it a "great image" falls very short. However other comments about authoritarian figures and corporations are as relevant as ever.

Quote

"'Swastika Eyes' is about the new world order, American international terrorism" explains Bobby. "The Americanisation of the world. It's about control. It's a great image, a great insult 'You've got swastika eyes' - it applies to any authoritarian figure; a politician or a policeman - you see them everywhere." The Creation press officer has told Jockey Slut that the title is going to change. "No, the title isn't going to change" insists Bobby firmly. 'She might have said that but she works tar the other side."

https://web.archive.org/web/20160307015235/http://www.theprimalscream.com/press/jockey-oct99.html

Quote

"Swastika Eyes," which actually attacks the imperialist and capitalist policies of both the governments and multi-national corporations operating in the U.S. and the U.K., has caused a stir since it was issued as a single in Europe in November
...
"Well, I think it's a really great image, 'swastika eyes,'" Gillespie explained. "We actually started with the song title, and we wrote [around it], and then everything else fell into place. You know, it was a great image, [sings] 'You've got swastika eyes.'"
"When was the last time you saw [U.S. Secretary of State] Madeleine Albright on the TV?" Mani asked. "Therein lies the answer to the conundrum. She has got swastika eyes. [U.K. Prime Minister] Tony Blair has got swastika eyes."
"[So does] the head of BP [British Petroleum], the head of Shell, Lockheed TriStar, McDonnell Douglas," Gillespie said.
"If you look at their eyes," Mani said, "you'd think you're gazing at a great white shark in the middle of a feeding frenzy. There's no humanity there with people anymore."
"All those multi-national corps that are just raping the f***in' planet, man. Just eliminating people."

https://web.archive.org/web/20160331202624/http://www.mtv.com/news/1433292/primal-scream-talks-controversial-eyes-track/

Re: swastika eyes

It's a provocative title and phrase. If that's not alt-rock music 101, I don't know what is...

You're right though, in today's world that tile carries more weight than maybe it used to.

Great fucking track, Chems should dust off that banger for their DJ tour

Quote from: Bosco on Feb 10, 2025, 21:43

You're right though, in today's world that tile carries more weight than maybe it used to.

Case in point.... 

https://variety.com/2025/tv/news/how-kanye-west-super-bowl-ad-swastika-shirts-1236302946/

What in the actual fuck.

You know, I admire Andy Kaufman and all of his crazy audaciousness, but I'm starting to wonder if there is parallels between Kanye and Andy. Obviously Kanye has taken it to a whole new level with his seemingly endless supply of cash, but is this the shtick. Or, is he without a doubt an absolute sociopath and mentally ill?

• 2011 The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB) was founded by the US Congress after the financial crisis (07/08) and is responsible for consumer protection in the financial sector
• 2022 Musk buys Twitter, renaming it to X
• 2025 January 20 Trump made an executive order creating the Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) which is headed by Musk
• 2025 January 28 X partnered with Visa to allow peer-to-peer payment on X, feature is called X Money. With this step X Money fells under the supervision of CFPB
• 2025 February 11 DOGE closes CFPB

Quote from: ThePumisher on Feb 11, 2025, 12:03

• 2025 January 28 X partnered with Visa to allow peer-to-peer payment on X, feature is called X Money. With this step X Money fells under the supervision of CFPB

Considering Musk's original X.com from 1999 was "an online hub for every kind of financial transaction in the world", a business that subsequenty changed its name to Paypal(!) after he was overthrown as CEO (https://mashable.com/article/musk-x-twitter-paypal). It makes you wonder if his main reason for buying Twitter was to eventually turn it into... a successful payment hub called X.com.

Quote from: Bosco on Feb 11, 2025, 05:56

You know, I admire Andy Kaufman and all of his crazy audaciousness, but I'm starting to wonder if there is parallels between Kanye and Andy. Obviously Kanye has taken it to a whole new level with his seemingly endless supply of cash, but is this the shtick. Or, is he without a doubt an absolute sociopath and mentally ill?

I always thought Kaufman just trolled as hard as he could, just to stir shit up.
Kanye seems genuinely mentally disturbed.
There was a method to  Kaufman's antics, there is just almost stream-of-conscience with Kanye.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/phvAMyqX6uU

Happy Valentines Day

Quote from: Bosco on Feb 15, 2025, 02:18

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/phvAMyqX6uU

Happy Valentines Day

Difficult to hit "Like" on that...
The Metro Newspaper claims today (https://metro.co.uk/2025/02/16/nuclear-expert-issues-chernobyl-update-emerges-fires-still-burning-22567966/) that fires are "still raging inside the 'sarcophagus' of the exploded fourth nuclear reactor at Chernobyl".

Mankind will have fun with that sarcophagus the next hundreds years until a new one has to be build - so there are al lot of "happy valentines" in that time (except maybe a world war or the climate crisis wipes us all from the surface of this planet). And then there's the 40% of the exclusion zone that will be radiated for the next 24.000 years...

Quote

Chernobyl radiation shield hit by Russian drone, Ukraine says

Will there be any evidence to confirm this?
Constant drone strikes on civil infrastructure - the handwriting of others..
Maybe someone wants to disrupt the peace talks?

I don't think the public will ever have access to proof unfortunately. Even if we do, we live in a misinformation age where "truth" is twisted.

I personally hate the false flag theory, but cant deny that it's possible.

Horribly dangerous tactic for whomever is responsible. Unfortunately, the world is lacking trustworthy leadership everywhere.

We all knew Trump is an asshole but what the actual fuck did just happen?

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DGoEoQpMKp8/?igsh=MXcxdGZwOWlmY2ZxaA==

One thing I say with all the kindness in my heart: I really, really hope that Trump, Putin and all their dipshit oligarch enablers soon go fucking die and rot in a hole somewhere.

Zelensky thrown to the lions. Nothing short of disgusting. No doubt this show orchestrated for the maga faithful. There will be less simpathy for Ukraine's plight after this car crash

There is a Putin sympathizer in the white house. America is in a very dangerous place.

2 month into this second term shit show. Can't stomach 4 more year of this.

One thing that is hopefully clear to all democratic leaders worldwide after this: this orange turd in a suit has a worse maturity and diplomatic skills than a schoolyard bully

Saw some of this about 3 hours ago but had to switch it off. Have watched the full 4 minute clip on the BBC Website now. Trump says "I've empowered you to be the tough guy and you're not thankful".

I'm pretty sure it was the last administration that empowered him by supporting him. They did it without asking Zelensky for "a minerals deal" (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn527pz54neo) and they did it without asking Zelensky to give Putin an inch.

Trump & Vance have their tongues so far up Putin's ass, it's insane. I think Trump admires Putins "strongman" image (even though Trump is weak) and also sees possiblities to make money out of the sutuation. Always about the money with Trump.

Well Putin rules by fear. That's why Alexei Navalny ended up being murdered by poison. Putin also had the Skripals murdered in the UK. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cwy1pp7v8kyo)
This is not the behaviour of someone who should be supported by any democratic leader in the free world. Furthermore it was Putin who invaded Ukraine, having previously stated that he would not do so. (https://www.npr.org/2022/01/10/1071766987/u-s-russia-dicuss-ukraine-can-diplomacy-help-avoid-a-military-confrontation) He cannot be trusted.

If you give Putin an inch, he will take a mile. But apparently Trump & Vance don't want to think about that. They just want to chastise Zelensky for daring to stand up to his invaders. I'd love to see how long Trump & Vance would last in Ukraine fighting against a superpower invader. I understand that they are too afraid to visit Ukraine.

I honestly think it's time that Putin got a taste of his own medicine - Novichok. If he can have other people murdered with it, then it should also happen to him. It is PUTIN who is in danger of starting WW3, and Trump is weak if he stands by and watches Putin with admiration. And yes, I'd love to see Trump & Vance rot in a hole somewhere too, @Stefan.

If anyone thought my reaction to Trump's re-election was a little over the top back in November, hopefully you can see now why I was so utterly pissed off.

BTW, I perhaps unwisely watched a film on the 6th of November: The Apprentice (2024) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8368368/). It's about Trump - the early years. No actual "Apprentice" tv show stuff in there, thankfully. Sebastian "Bucky" Stan does a good job playing Trump, and the influence of his lawyer Roy Cohn with his "never admit defeat" attitude helped me 'understand' Trump's stance when he lost the election to Biden. But Trump didn't exactly go up in my estimation. He's a cheap, tacky guy with no class. I'd trust a used car salesman more than him.