General Bullshit Chat (pt 2)

[Wolkenkrabber]

Russia considers unplugging from the internet

I guess the forum will be unavailable for non-Russians when this happens.

[Explud]

I guess the forum will be unavailable for non-Russians when this happens.

Bullshit.

"Yellow Journalism"

[Conn6orsuper117]

go home youtube, you're drunk



I mean I understand its one of the most notorious go to sample songs but really?

[sandelic]

I was wondering...
Now, I know this may not be a good place (thread) to ask this, but I would very much like to ask our Chemical brothers and sisters living in UK a few questions regarding coming Brexit and current domestic political issues you guys are facing these days. If anyone is interested, you can PM me so not to bore others with politics on forum primarily about music.

[Enjoyed]

I wouldn't be bored reading about people's thoughts, personally.

I'm honestly completely detached from the whole situation after having moved to the States.

My Dad seems pretty blasé about the whole thing. He thinks a lot of the issues that are supposedly going to hit if(/when) a No Deal happens have been exaggerated. Though he also is pretty tunnel visioned when it comes to some opinions/information. We all voted to stay. It was a super sad result when it came out. And ultimately the whole thing was hugely flawed. It never should have been put to the vote, but, we are here now. I'm definitely interested to see what the overall repercussions are. Though, being a 'Remainer', there's also a kind of 'told-you-so' attitude that fuels a small part of me. I want to see the idiots who voted to leave punished. Lightly. Lightly punished. By not being able to buy their favourite fruit... or something...

[sandelic]

Thanks for replying, Enjoyed.
Actually, I'm not really interested in Brexit discussion, I think all has been said by now in some form  or another.
Questions I have in mind are more about Tory - Labour dynamics which I don't really understand despite my every effort to read as much as I can on the subject.
For instance, why Labour didn't do more to combat Brexit? What is Corbyn so afraid of?
Why didn't Theresa May quit already, seeing how she was remainer to start with and obviously have little to no support from hard liners in her party? Is she this desperate to keep her position, such as it is?
I also have multitudes of question about Labour and their politics.

[Wolkenkrabber]

For instance, why Labour didn't do more to combat Brexit? What is Corbyn so afraid of?

Corbyn in 1996:

There are more clips of Corbyn historically criticising the EU on Youtube. I believe he was one of just 20 Labour PM's who wanted the EU referendum to go ahead in 2016.

Why didn't Theresa May quit already, seeing how she was remainer to start with and obviously have little to no support from hard liners in her party? Is she this desperate to keep her position, such as it is?

There seems to be a real dearth of honourable or intelligent people in the Tory party at the moment. Boris Johnson used the EU referendum to play politics with his old Eton chum David Cameron (and then looked surprised when the result came in), and many other Tories just seem to be out of their depth. The only Tory I really respect is Ken Clarke (also a Remainer) but he was always too damn reasonable to be elected leader of his party. Theresa sees herself as a sort of saviour of democracy, she wants to "do the right thing" which is the "will of the people" (although, who knows?...maybe the people feel differently now that they have an idea what's coming). As Ken Clarke himself said, she is a stubborn, difficult woman.

Labour are being lead by a hard left leader who thinks the EU doesn't protect the working class in the UK (presumably because of the arrival of "cheap" foreign workers who could take their jobs). But many  MPs in the Labour Party are not as far left as Corbyn is, leading to a wierd Opposition bench where many Labour MP's don't want to be on his Front Bench.

[sandelic]

Yeah, I've been looking at Corbyn's voting record and he is suspiciously absent or plainly for Brexit when there was a vote to stay in EU or to give PM power to start divorcing procedures.
That clashes with much of his later statements about that issue, which makes me believe that he is, pardon me for being this blunt, playing a game with UK future for short-lived political gains.
Am I right in assuming that any serious, anti-Brexit movement never took hold simply because, in part, people ('Remainers') didn't have a serious organization, such as Labour, to stand behind/with?

I realize that, at this point, nobody wants to be the figure who will lead UK out of EU integrations and accept blame for all potential problems UK might face from that decision, which is why I don't understand why PM didn't quit already. I mean, seeing how both sides are now generally against every proposition she brings to the table, I would do that in her shoes. Let hard liners like Jacob Rees-Mogg take over and deal with mess they made themselves or let Corbyn try, if they dare.
If that is the case and I'm not wrong about my assumptions, it's funny how very similar your situation is to one we have here, in my country.

[Wolkenkrabber]

Am I right in assuming that any serious, anti-Brexit movement never took hold simply because, in part, people ('Remainers') didn't have a serious organization, such as Labour, to stand behind/with?

Inside parliament yes, there is no Party that is officially "Remain", but ironically the majority of MP's on both sides of the house ARE pro-Remain! So the pro-Remain MP's don't like Theresa's deal because it is Brexit and the pro-Leave MP's don't like it because it isn't Brexit-y enough!

There is a Remain movement though. Mostly inspired by non-MPs.
Did you see THIS last October?

There's another one of these coming on Saturday:

https://twitter.com/peoplesvote_uk/status/1108284548855619585
(how did this embed with that arrow emoji?)

Compare last October's march numbers to the "leave" march that started a few days ago in Sunderland (Nigel Farage was at the start but said he wouldn't be doing the whole march!), which looked like this:

https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1106869664561487872

Other previously unknown people have also become Remain "leaders" in the absence of politicians whom the Remainers can trust, such as this guy:

https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1002591845812244481

and this guy:

https://twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1107235527068209152

Oh and if you look for someone called Ness Rowlands on twitter you will find her tweets are a non-stop mission of anti-Brexit stuff (mostly retweets). She's a mum of three in Lewes. Guess who her husband is.

I realize that, at this point, nobody wants to be the figure who will lead UK out of EU integrations and accept blame for all potential problems UK might face from that decision, which is why I don't understand why PM didn't quit already.

I may get in trouble for this but I believe that on Theresa's part it's a Protestant/Calvinist sense of duty. It's a (slightly old fashioned) British thing! Regarding the other potential candidates (Reese-Mogg etc) for PM, they're either not that keen until after Brexit or they can't get enough support within their own party.

[sandelic]

Thanks for replying, I'll have to wait to come home to watch links you provided.

[Born In Planet Dust]

Thank you Britain for making our current shit show look slightly less insane.  Wait, scratch that.  We still have a corrupt, bigoted, petty, egomaniac man child with access to nuclear weapons.  Fuck.

[sandelic]

Inside parliament yes, there is no Party that is officially "Remain", but ironically the majority of MP's on both sides of the house ARE pro-Remain! So the pro-Remain MP's don't like Theresa's deal because it is Brexit and the pro-Leave MP's don't like it because it isn't Brexit-y enough!

I should not be surprised they can't agree on any deal, if parties are that fractured.
Now I kind of feel sorry for your PM, obviously there is no middle way here and all her efforts will amount to nothing.

There is a Remain movement though. Mostly inspired by non-MPs.
Did you see THIS last October?

Yeah, I'm aware of it and it actually was a source of my assumption that Remain movement has no larger political party or organization to stand behind.
I'm somewhat perplexed that Labour didn't stand with those people, but, as you said, if key figures are too left leaning and hold such views about EU, one should not be really surprised.

Thanks for all those twitter links. I don't use it and have no idea what people are saying there, so all of those are news to me. Including Mrs. Rowlands tweets.
I've read some of her posts and it's interesting read. I didn't know Corbyn walked out of meeting
with opposition leaders because Chuka Umunna was present. Amazing.
Is he that thin skinned? And at a time like this?

I had to read on "The Ethical Basis of Calvinism". And then "The Protestand/Calvanist work ethic" because I know very little about Protestantism/Calvinism.
If I understand it right, "Protestant/Calvinist sense of duty" amounts to following:
since no one knows who God will choose to be saved, one must believe himself 'Chosen' if only to dispel self-doubt that is a sure sign of insufficient faith. In order to get that confidence, worldly activity or business is recommended, and if it goes well, it's a sign that God is favouring you and is potentially considering you for salvation?  So by doing her duty, she's actually 'professing' her faith?
If I got it right, I see why India historically held such fascination for your people; it sound very much like their caste system (just a observation, not a critique).
But I'm confused how they managed to reconcile that with predestination, but that is another matter.

Again, thanks for your reply. I think I understand things better now and let me apologize to you all for hijacking this thread with my curiosities.

[Wolkenkrabber]

On Wednesday night Ed Simons tweeted this:

https://twitter.com/eddychemical/status/1108510484800700418

As soon as I looked at it, it was evident that the Petition was quickly headed towards it's required 100,000 target. I added my name. It also soon became apparent that a LOT of people were tweeting/retweeting. It smashed the 100k target in no time and then just...kept going! It became more than just a petition, it became a way for Remainers to make their point. It hit a million on Thursday night. It hit three million on Friday. Then on Saturday it hit 4 million, whilst this was happening:

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1109502078005714945

The route shown starts in reverse from the end point of the march (Parliament Square) up to Trafalgar Sqaure, Piccadilly (the road, not circus) and up Park Lane where people started at the top (Marble Arch). It doesn't look that impressive at first, but keep watching. This clip doesn't even get all the way back to the start. Pleased to say I was in there somewhere.

Will this make any difference? Who knows? But the referendum was called in 2016 because "Eurosceptics" made some noise. It's great to see Remainers making noise now.

If any "Remainer" British people are reading this (with a UK post code) and they want to sign the petition, just click the link in Ed's tweet. It's up to almost 5.5 million now; the highest figure ever on one of these petitons to Parliament.

You can watch the numbers climb Here  or  Here.

ps: Just to be clear this isn't Ed's petition. He was just the first person who I saw tweeting about it.

[Csar]

Really impressive numbers, as were on Saturday. I was really happily surprised at how many people took to the streets to demonstrate against this chaos. On the other hand, though, I'm afraid this reaction comes 3 years too late. People need to understand that voting has consequences and that every vote counts one way or the other. You need to educate yourself and not just follow emotion-laden, fear-mongering campaigns.
Don't get me wrong, I really want you to stay in the EU. But I fear backtracking on this could hurt democracy more than the brexit propaganda already has - undermining democratic referendums.

[WhiteNoise]

If a country votes to ban cars and replace them with personal fuel-efficient anti-gravity hovercraft, then 3 years later discovers the technology for anti-gravity hovercraft never existed as it was promised, and everyone will get a bicycle instead, should the people still be forced to abandon their cars and accept the bicycles?

Hell no. Have another vote. The Brexit people voted for is not the Brexit they're receiving. The situation has changed, let the people decide again, they certainly want to. I can't see how more voting hurts democracy - especially since the 2016 referendum was non-binding.

[Csar]

If a country votes to ban cars and replace them with personal fuel-efficient anti-gravity hovercraft, then 3 years later discovers the technology for anti-gravity hovercraft never existed as it was promised, and everyone will get a bicycle instead, should the people still be forced to abandon their cars and accept the bicycles? Hell no. Have another vote. The Brexit people voted for is not the Brexit they're receiving.

Well, I'm with you on that notion but I kind of question this:

The situation has changed

Has it, really? Weren't the facts already there that "magically" materialized after the referendum (like the healthcare funds lie etc.)? Or were some folks just ignorant in plain sight of those facts and some just lazy by not voting at all?
I recently read an intersting article about Tim Martin, founder of the Weatherspoon pub chain, who is a vocal Brexiteer. In that article it was discussed how people were willfully ignoring facts that Remainers brought into the debate (they described an episode in one of Martin's pubs) but were talked down and shouted at in an agressive manner because those people just didn't want to know and refused to believe what was told to them about the likely ramifications of a Brexit. In this day and age it feels like emotions have more and more sway than pure facts. Though, people have a choice to educate themselves and study up or just believe what they feel may be true (and thus raising the chance of falling victim to false prophets).

let the people decide again, they certainly want to. I can't see how more voting hurts democracy - especially since the 2016 referendum was non-binding.

I get your point, and honestly I hope this could indeed become an option. However, the immediate question that will follow such a decision is: How many referendums are there needed to be held to reach a certain outcome? Right-wing bigots will certainly use this as a victim-card, claiming that "they" hold as many referendums as "they" need until "they" get their desired outcome. And this, I fear, could be a perilous direction for a democracy.
An option that might mitigate that risk could be a referendum asking what kind of Brexit Britons would favor (no deal/ deal) and also include the question of a no-Brexit, to see what the majority really wants. But time's running out fast.

[WhiteNoise]

All good points! I suppose the situation has changed more so in it becoming much, much harder for Leavers to keep the faith that Brexit will bring about the benefits that were promised. Not that there weren't people saying from the beginning, for example, that the Irish border would have absolutely no easy solution, but the issues Remainers brought up then are in general coming true with no solutions, and the benefits Leavers brought up are in general failing to show up. Obv the UK isn't gonna set fire and sink into the ocean, society will be fine, but it's turning out to be a net negative.

It's not so much that people don't educate themselves - yeah, plenty don't - but too many educate themselves by listening to sources they already agree with. They feel educated, high on "evidence" picked and twisted for their own narrative. Back to feeling, I guess.

I definitely get the "slippery slope" issue of multiple referendums. I guess I just don't think the slope is that slippery, especially in this situation. Sure they might be able to play that victim card, but it'll be met with the perspective of "we turned around from a terrible decision", it's not an unanswerable retort. Still, you're right, it's not out of the imagination another party demands second referendums on losing topics - maybe I just have too much faith in people to be reasonable and say "we voted twice then because of how big an issue it was".

[ThePumisher]

[Wolkenkrabber]

You need to educate yourself and not just follow emotion-laden, fear-mongering campaigns.

Don't hold back Csar! Tell me what you're really thinking

Let me see if I can respond to this without coming across as emotion-laden (I've done a TL;DR at the bottom for people who don't want to read all of this). There's a reason why I said "Will this make any difference?" in my post above. I am aware of the implications for democracy. And I know there are some very angry brexiteers right now, following the failure of Parliament to agree on any version of Brexit over the past week.

But I also agree with Enjoyed where he says this should never have been put to the vote. There was a referendum in 1975, two years after Britain joined. Why was a second referendum called in 2016? Because David Cameron was trying to appease the Eurosceptics in his own party.  He hoped that a "Remain" result would put the matter to bed. When the gamble backfired, he promptly quit and

. The 2016 referendum was little more than David Cameron making a big gamble with the UK's future in order to resolve Tory party squabbles

I believe there were also a couple of fundamental things wrong with the actual ballot.

1) The UK has Parliamentary Democracy not Direct Democracy. I.e all decisions must ultimately be made by MP's, not by their constituents.  Yet the ballot paper promised "whatever you decide, we will do" (and now the MPs are struggling to actually do that!). Furthermore MPs were initially told that the referendum would be "advisory". Then the public was told something else.

2)  The second problem was the simple wording: "Leave the EU". I hear some voters say: "it's simple, why can't we just leave?" Well in the same way that you can't just leave your mortgage or your rent contract (unless it's all paid off), it's not that easy to just leave a Union you have been a part of for 45 years.  Business, borders, politics, academia and culture are all affected and interconnected in the EU. So you need a plan.

There are a couple of reasons why the phrase "leave the EU" was not more clearly defined in the referendum:
1) The Vote Leave people admitted that not everyone who wanted to leave had the same ideas about what that meant (e.g. soft leavers, hard Brexiters, oh and racists!)
2) David Cameron didn't think "Leave" would win, so he didn't worry too much about the specifics (this link gets interesting about half way down).

of Sky News reporter Faisal Islam's conversation with a (unnamed) Brexiteer MP the day after the referendum. There may have been promises but there was no plan. There still isn't (an agreed one).

Some Brexiteers seem excited about the possibility of leaving on a "No Deal" (it really could happen!), but that would be a disaster..  And furthermore would actually defy parts of The Good Friday Agreement for Northern Ireland. As Oliver Norgorve (no beard) – a former (now disillusioned) Vote Leave staffer says in this video (3.27 – 7.28), most people in mainland Britain didn't even think about the consequences for Northern Ireland when they voted.

(this whole "Ex-Brexiteer" interview is worth a watch if you have time, if not, then I recommend the "why I switched" section between 13.00 and 18.00 mins)

It would also make a mockery of the promises from Vote Leave. Liam Fox promised the easiest deal in history,  David Davis (the Brexit secretary who achieved nothing!) said there will be no downside to Brexit. Daniel Hannan said there was no question of leaving the single market (!). Vote Leave said Britain could strike out and get the best deals possible around the world.

But it hasn't turned out that way. The EU hasn't been keen to capitulate as the Brexiteers suggested. I guess this is the stuff that WN was referring to above. The promised "golden Unicorn" of a Brexit Britain with amazing worldwide trade deals – it just isn't gonna come true! (this link is a year old).
Britain will be in a far inferior negotiating position when it removes itself from the EU trading block. If Britain leaves on a "No Deal" it has to start again from scratch in terms of striking deals with everyone inside and outside the EU. If Britain leaves with a deal it will have to be a "ruke taker not a rule maker" (good article, easy read). The UK has had such a strong voice within the EU but many British people don't even realise it. They assume "Brussels" calls the shots. Ugh!!

So, some Remainers are now saying: "Just revoke article 50. Brexit remains undefined, it's collapsing under it's own weight". And yes, I signed the petition. But I'm aware that the old "democracy" argument would probably rear its head if that were to happen.

My suggestion is that parliament should try to continue to come to an agreement on a "Brexit" that is workable (hopefully a reasonably soft Brexit). Then go back to the people and say: Ok, NOW that we finally have a clearly defined Brexit, let's check if the majority of you still want it. Let's call a new referendum. If you vote for this specific Brexit, we will enact this specific Brexit. Alternatively you can vote Remain and we can call the whole thing off.

Is that really a snub to Brexiteers?  Can you really kill democracy with more democracy? Posh Tory Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg didn't seem to think so in 2011 when he was already pushing for an EU exit (not yet known as Brexit) and suggesting two referendums:

https://twitter.com/TheLampPostUK/status/883094492001312768

And it certainly seems that MP's have had the oportunity to change their minds in Parliament quite a bit:
https://twitter.com/PaddySisyphus/status/1110635861841006594

Of course Theresa May has tried to get her deal (which the EU are ok with) through three times in Parliament, and failed. She blames the MPs; and they blame her. Here's a great clip from Thursday's Newsnight illustrating the frustration that many MPs (in the Tory party!) feel about Theresa May. ("Fuck knows" said on a politics programme on the BBC)
https://twitter.com/damocrat/status/1111399511392317440

A recent Yougov poll showed that "Nearly two-thirds of people would vote to remain in the EU rather than for Theresa May's deal if a referendum offering those options were called".
Whilst respected pollster Sir John Curtice says Remain has been fairly consistently ahead in polls over the last year (scroll down to "Do Britons still want to leave the EU"). Hmm, what if the majority of people now want to remain, but the UK goes ahead and leaves anyway? Is that the right thing to do? I think it would be bonkers.

https://twitter.com/CarolineLucas/status/1110460719965843456

As for the petition and the march: I agree that the petition is a little naïve. Likewise last Saturday's march was for the side that officially lost in 2016.
Incidentally, the pro-Brexit event that just took place on Friday (originally the UK's leave date) was considerably smaller. About a 10th the size of the Remain one. Speakers included right wing nut job Tommy Robinson. Says it all really. 

But regardless of my emotions, both the Article 50 petition and the Remain march were of sufficient size to catch the eye of British MPs who mentioned it in Parliament (some of them even attended and spoke at the event), as well as the eye of Donald Tusk. Tusk engaged with tweets from the march last Saturday. I suspect he's looking for reasons to extend the period the UK might require to resolve the current crisis – Tusk doesn't really want the UK to leave. But if the march and petition give the EU an excuse to extend the "delay" period rather than watch the UK crash out on No Deal, it will have been worthwhile.
https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1110852539724058624

One final thing. Vote Leave had been appealing against the guilty charges of overspending for their referendum campaign. However they decided to finally scrap their appeal on Friday the 29th of March – original Brexit Day.  I wonder why.

https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1111688875704020994

TL;DR? Brexit was poorly defined and yet it's proponents made great promises. Some say Article 50 (to trigger Brexit) should simply be revoked. I think a specific "Brexit" needs to be put forward, and then a final referendum held where we can choose that specific "Brexit" or choose to Remain. Democracy won't kill democracy.

[satur8]

Hi peeps.

I'm changing the subject from politics for just a moment because, damn, it's f'd up all over right now and I could go on for hours.

I haven't checked in for a bit but I'm back. I'm usually lurking whether there is an album out or not, but I guess this time I'm riding the wave with the new-release-visitors.

Anyway, my CD just arrived from Japan last night and I've only had one good listen so far, but damn, there's a lot to say. Short answer: I dig it. And by the look of the forum there's a lot to read, too. Looking forward to jumping back in to the conversation through the weekend. I'm also looking forward to a PROPER listen tonight or tomorrow.